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Absolute Naturists Are Clothing Optional Clubs/Resorts Hurting Nudists?
| This group is about people who desire to live nude all the time and create communities or areas that would support their desire. Given this, it would seem like the clothing optional clubs and resorts are directly opposed to this desire. They provide an avenue for a business enterprise that does not fully support or is committed to nude living. It allows for people(customers) to mingle with nudists (and show how cool they are) as well as dabble with nudity without truly understanding nudity, the concepts of body acceptance or even simply accepting nudity in their life. So, is this hurting or helping the nudist community? Your thoughts please. | |
| ***It allows for people(customers) to mingle with nudists (and show how cool they are) as well as dabble with nudity without truly understanding nudity, the concepts of body acceptance or even simply accepting nudity in their life.*** That quote brings focus to a problem related to CO venues. That of basically textile observers. I don't mind being seen nude by other nudists and my 72 year old out of shape body would probably not be a focal point for these observers but it does bother me that clothed people mingle as you say with nudists simply to see nudity or to feel cool. I can sympathize with those who need a period of adjustment at first but a nude venue is a nude venue and there should be a limit as to how long a person can remain clothed. The word optional precludes this as it implies that clothing can be worn all the time. | |
| Of the clubs/resorts I've had the pleasure to visit, everyone I encountered was friendly and inviting. I would think that if someone were interested or curious enough to visit a social nudist environment, but could not reach a comfort level from the support of the members around them in the first 20-30 minutes to relax enough to undress and be part of the experience. Then perhaps their concerns and issues are best addressed by someone in a more professional capacity. But that's just my humble opinion. | |
| Excellent argument!!! Well put, I couldn't agree more. | |
| Right on Berkshires! That is a very strong argument against clothing optional and one that we should have but probably didn't think of in our quest to be accommodating. If we must conform to the textile world then in our small and segregated areas of society they should conform to our manner or living free of clothing when they visit us. | |
| clothing-optional allows some to get used to the idea that our society has enforced from our youth. Once people see that it is not a headonistic free-for-all then they become acclimated to change the views and enjoy the nude experience. I do think there should always be a small area clothing-optional for this purpose. Seldom dose one suddenly feel liberated enough to strip clothes and social views at the same abrupt time. Counter point, strict nude areas should be enforced so when someone says 'whats in that area' you can say take off your clothes and find out . . . That can be a positive motivator. | |
| Well said Berkshires, but I would be more tolerant of a nude participants spouse. | |
| I feel that the clubs are limiting their membership by not allowing reluctant spouses to attend clothed. Therefore, I will spend my money where I am wanted. | |
| I have this very issue within my family. My adult child is very much willing to adopt this as a lifestyle but the spouse is not. The spouse is supportive and respectful and willing to do anything it can to have the club allow our child to attend our club. The clubs rules are that they have to visit together, take a tour and be nude. Why are we (naturists) "forcing" people to be naked? And....there are certain rules for certain people I guess. I've been to the club and been laying out on the pool deck. Warm weather, full sun and people are taking tours completely clothed. WTH!? | |
| I have mainly had experience at C.O. resorts, so am not as familiar with "nude only" clubs as others here. My view is that clothing optional clubs and resorts help nudists in that they enable others to see how mellow, friendly, comfortable and well, "natural" nudism is and nudists are. It demystifies social nudity in my view, so those who experience it no longer hold common misconceptions they might have had before. I have seen many clothed people at a C.O. resort who gradually become comfortable shedding their suits and so add to our numbers. I also feel that these type of resorts enable couples to choose and this is a good thing for both the nudist and the clothed spouse. "Mixed marriages" of this sort are fairly common at C.O. resorts and I see that as a positive. I have no problem at all being nude and socializing with others who are dressed, whether on the beach or anywhere else on a c.o. resort. It is just not an issue for me and I've never seen it as an issue for the others either, or else they wouldn't likely choose this type of resort. | |
| Something just occurred yesterday at a nude event at a nude club. After the event, a couple, he nude, she dressed (completely), hung around for the award ceremony. After the awards were given...the owner came over to the couple and told them that the club was "pretty much a no clothing club" and she'd have to leave or get undressed. They left. I think...with her outnumbered by about 100+ to 1...she still made some of the members and guests uncomfortable standing there completely clothed and watching everyone. Not sure why she wouldn't jump in and take the plunge. It seemed like they were having a good time but they elected to leave instead of her at least giving it a try. It just seemed strange that this one person could possibly make dozens of naked people feel a little uncomfortable. She didn't make me feel uncomfortable....I felt great with the exception of feeling a bit "spent" after that 5K !!! Too bad she didn't partake. Maybe they'll go back someday. FP | |
| Maybe people have to know the old expression when In Rome do as the Romans do. Or in this case when in a nudist club do as the nudist do :) | |
| I moved this post to the discussion, "How To Make Public Nudity A Reality." I felt it would be more appropriate there. John | |
| I have been to clothing optional clubs that the members are more nude than at my own club. My club is nude only but It has gotten to where there are people walking around or playing sports all the time with clothes on. Now I am one to agree that if most of the people around you are wearing clothes because of the weather then so be it, when in Rome and all that. But it has turned into that people only remove their clothes at our resort when they feel like it. If they don't feel like it, they don't. There are some who I haven't seen naked in months if not years. The only place that is really supposed to be nude only at our resort now is the "recreation area" which is the area around the pool and club house. Why is it that people see that is the rule but they now have to make sure that they wear a sarong or pareo when they are making their way to or from their lounge chair. I am talking mostly women here! This is a nudist resort! Not the beach! You don't have to be wearing something just because you are walking 25 feet to the cafe!. When I first joined my club, people policed this kind of thing all the time. Now it is concidered PC to not say anything for fear of insulting the person. Sorry I got on a rant here. I just believe that if you want to come to a nudist resort, be naked! If you want a day out to wear clothes all day, go to a park or a beach! It is simply as that. | |
| hahaha... I think you and I are members of the same club! I've noticed that this phenomenon is most prevalent at our club and on weekends. My wife feels that it's a body issue thing with some of the females. They are not comfortable with their behinds so...they cover them up when they walk from one place to the next. Seems like a contradiction for being a nudist, joining a nudist club and visiting to be nude but cover up when you get up outta your lounge! Strange... I did notice a while back that there was management presence at the pool deck and some were being told to either strip off or leave the rec area but nothing was being said to the females that were slipping on little nothing skirts to walk to the cafe. This is what bothers me with some clubs and ours in particular. Seems there are rules for guests, members and residents and none of them really match up...equally. | |
| I can tell you a good reason to put something on while at the resort. My wife takes medication that makes her sensitive to the sun; she burns easily. She does like to feel the breeze and SOME sun on her bare skin but just not too much. When she starts to burn and must put something on, should she be forced to leave, to lose the enjoyment of the association of others just because she has reached her limit? Usually, she will later again strip. John | |
| You may be taking what we are saying the wrong way John. Let me explain better so you understand where I'm coming from. My wife has a similar issue with the sun. She's had several pre-cancers removed because of prolonged sun exposure. She also needs to limit her time and when she's had enough...she needs to also cover and then undresses completely after the sun's gone down. We are talking about women who are laying out in the sun all day and then get up and slip on a small pareo or next to nothing skirt to walk around the pool area from one lounge to another or 25-30 ft to the cafe to pick up their lunch. Where is the reason or sense in that? | |
| Ok, I agree with that. John | |
| We are owners of resort in Costa Rica, which from the beginning was intended to one day be CO,we just had to wait till the landscaping was old enough to offer coverage. In the meantime, we have been open to anybody, and I am sure there has been a lot of skinny dipping when guests have felt the privacy or cover of dark for it. We are finally at the point where plants, walls and fences offer complete privacy and when we needed to choose to be either CO or for strict nudists, we chose the Clothing Optional option for these reasons: - We are a small business and the tourism market is still sensitive. By being CO, we make room also for the couples where one spouse is not fully into the 'nekid' thing. (From inquiries, we feel this was the right choice, because interested people feel that they will have more freedom to try the nude life without pressure.) - We are totally against putting mandates on anybody (except our kids). - We are both fair and need to limit sun exposure, without having to go inside. - In Costa Rica, cool temperatures are not really an issue, but I personally do not like the disapproval I have felt at nudist places when I need to cover up because I am freezing inside in A/C or outside in cooler weather. - To us, "nudism" is a mind set more than anything else, making us have a complete acceptance of nude bodies, our own or those of others, so it makes no difference for us to be nude in front of other people who are also nude or those who are not. We feel that true nudists feel this way and thus should not be uncomfortable if being seen by people who are clothed. Shouldn't we just feel sorry for those who are not "there" yet? We are still working on filling our place for the first time with CO guests, so we will see how it goes and if we will stick to the plan or alter it later. If we continue being "clothing optional", I don't see how we will be hurting true nudists. I do agree with others, that it is silly to cover up, just to go a short distance in front of others. To me that just means that they have not totally wrapped their mind around the nude issue that will make you not care if other people see your bodily flaws. Again, that is their problem, not mine. | |
| I posted this on another board yesterday. The club I refer to is a nudist club, not C/O but they do make clothing for women ok when required. Normally this would consist of a t-shirt for sun related issues or shorts for menstruation issues I had an experience at the club today which left me wondering. Most people in the camping area were nude as per normal. The sunning area adjoins the beach and people came from the camping area to swim then went back to the camping area. I think the reason for this is that a group of women fully clothed (slacks, blouses etc) decided to use the sunning area. I believe they were camping as they mentioned that they were disappointed in yesterdays cloud and happy to have the sun out, not that anything but their arms and faces could enjoy it. A lady came, nude but left shortly thereafter though she normally stays the entire afternoon. After a while I began to feel rather uncomfortable myself being nude among them and also left. | |
| Since this is a NUDIST club/resort and the Sunning area is part of the club, I think that the women should have been challenged. If they want to be clothed, go some where else. It sounds to me that they were a group of textiles trying and succeeding in chasing away nudists. John | |
| We've been schooled since childhood not to confront anybody, not to solve problems ourselves, let the authorities handle it, don't try this at home. The nude beaches and clubs ARE our home, and we've got to protect them from those who would ruin what we've built. Most textiles have no malice, but simply seek their own comfort without regard to ours. There are some textile-compulsive crusaders, but they are another topic. We cannot to afford to cede territory to those who merely make us uncomfortable, that's how beaches are lost. | |
| As a single male I am hesitant to confront people but I did have a chance to relate this to the manager who had been unaware of the incident but investigated and found that they were visitors of campers (paid their ground fees)and that he had told them they must remain in their campsite if they did not conform to the club rules. | |
| Well handled. As long as the manager followed up and made sure that they stayed where they were supposed to. John | |
| I have 2 clubs nearby. I joined one and not the other because the one I liked the best was nude only, not CO. I camped at the other one for a week last year, and the inconsistent rules made me uncomfortable at times. With some of the families, only the men were nude. I felt sorry for them, because if that happened to me, I would not feel at home there. If everyone around me is nude, I feel like we all have something in common, we are all nudists/naturists. If some are clothed, I feel more self-conscious. I can handle it alright, but I'm less comfortable. I can certainly accept that there is a need of covering for health or weather reasons; but clothing should be the exception, not the rule, at a resort. I know that I would not feel comfortable if I was wearing clothing and everyone around me was nude. It would be similar to me walking through town nude and everyone around me was clothed. I could understand doing that as a form of protest, but even then, I would feel uneasy. If it was legal, and my job wasn't threatened, I might give that a try once in a while, just to help educate the public about the human body. But that's not the case around here, sadly. So for now at least, I wear clothes where I am required to by law, and take them off whenever I can. I long for the day when nudity will be legal anywhere, but don't think it will happen in my lifetime, not here anyway. There is still so much educating of the public yet to be done first. | |
| Both sides of the issue have some good points as noted by Nudist 1. I, too, get a little upset when I see people clothed in a nudist area, but it happens so rarely at the club I go to that it's not worth taking any action, or there is a good reason for it, such as sunburn. The club I go to is C/O with mandatory nudity only in the pool and jacuzzi. It works well with newbies to give them a chance to get used to the idea of being nude, and to reach the point of feeling a little foolish because they are the only clothed ones. It might be worth considering letting first timers have one day of C/O to acclimate, then nude only. | |
| New here and I've never visited a nudist resort or beach but, would it not be friendlier to make resorts clothing optional, except in the pool/jacuzzi? It would allow nudists with reluctant spouses to visit and enjoy the pleasure they seek by going clothing free while in the company of their spouse/significant other. Such an experience, if the clothed person showed no disapproval of nudists around them, could lead to them eventually deciding to join all others by becoming nudists themselves. As far as the group of clothed women who took over the nude-only recreation area, why did club members allow it to happen? They, after all, went into a nudist area, presumably knowing others would/could be nude. They chose to enter the area, nudists were not invading the clothed world in this instance. Perhaps if the nude club members had treated the women in a friendly manner, as if everything was normal, the women would have decided to join in the fun by undressing themselves. | |
| I think that the clothing optional rule should be the rule in order to attract new members to the clubs. However, if you want people to be nude, then the members should be nude themselves. If you set the tone of the environment, then others will eventually follow. When I am at a resort, I am nude from the time I get there until I leave. That is my personal choice. Woman have a harder time just getting nude. It is naturally easier for men because the way today's society makes woman feel. My wife will wear wraps and matching tops that she makes herself. She is large chested and it is painful for her to always be topless. Some woman don't have this problem. To keep members and be able to welcome new members, you have to have some give and take. You have to remember, resorts and camps are a business, and they cannot afford to turn away or lose members, especially when times are tough. | |
| This topic has been debated for some time now and it is evident that there is a need for both Nude resorts/clubs and Clothing Optional resorts/clubs. A person's comfort level will either stay the same or change to varying degrees depending on how they feel about the environment they are in. The problems with these clubs, both types, are that; Nude Resorts; will allow more clothed people to partake in activities and everyday functions than nude people. I saw this at Desert Shadows Inn...on more than a few occasions. Clothing Optional Resorts; The option out numbers the number of nude people...making the nude people feel uncomfortable...except for one particular resort/inn we've frequented. Nude Clubs; Always bend the rules for their residents, friends...some guests. Thus...a NUDE club becomes a clothing optional club...like ours! ;( Clothing Optional Clubs; Again...the clothed people out number the nudes. I visited one of these in the summer in AZ. Hotter than heck out there and still found a huge number of clothed members and guests...that was weird! Clothing Optional has it's place. Like Brian's wife's situation...my wife needs to cover after she's had enough sun (previous skin cancers removed) but still likes to remain around the pool area and socialize and just people watch. We've been lucky that she has NOT been told to disrobe because we'd leave. Once the sun goes down and it's not too cold...she will get naked again. Clothing Optional definately has it's place and the need is there to attract newbies and to keep "clothes police" out of a job (JK)! LOL But there comes a time when you have to establish that the core purpose of the resort or club is for people to come and enjoy the facility naked and that there are plenty of other places to visit where they will not encounter nude people...so if that's what they prefer or if being naked is something they just can't do...they shouldn't be allowed to continually return on a regular basis and turn a nude club or a clothing optional club into another textile venue. ;) | |
| I think inflexibility can be a problem. There are situations which dictate some kind of covering may be required, whether for modesty or health reasons. What I've gotten from other posts I've read is the nudists are being pushed out of their own clubs by non-nudists. How is it possible? Perhaps some people, for whatever rwason, don't themselves feel comfortable being nude but enjoy the atmosphere of a nudist resort refreshing, without being anything less than truly appreciative of persons who are less inhibited and do enjoy social nudity. I have not engaged in any social activities as a nudist and may never do so. (Honestly, I tend to be a rather private person with a limited circle of family, friends, and coworkers. I don't attend parties, usually, nor otherwise engage in activities, outside of work, involving a lot of people, especially strangers). So, maybe my input is not really meaningful to this discussion. But, it just seems to me I have read about people who have openly proclaimed themselves nudists who love being among other nudists and, therefore, cannot really understand why the presence of clothed, even partially clothed, persons causes them so much angst, as long as there are no lewd comments or actions or obvious ogling going on. Jim | |
| But...that's just the case. When you have clothed people, more clothed people at a nude resort...making those that are nude feel uncomfortable...it's time for them to leave or disrobe...not time for the nudist to leave or clothed themselves. Example: My wife and I visited a resort in Florida. It is a NUDE resort...or used to be. We signed a "contract" and one of the items on that contract was that we understood it was a Nude resort and that weather permitting...we were expected to be nude. Signed it with pleasure! Next morning...we leave our room with only pareo's to sit on in the restaurant for breakfast. We were the ONLY ones nude! There were at least 6-8 tables occupied by others and they were all clothed and giving us the evil eye!!! I asked the waitress..."is it against the rules to be nude in the restaurant?" She replied..."no... can if you want." We visited a nude resort in Palm Springs for the day. It was a Sunday...football day!! Nothing like being naked, sitting pool side and going into the cafe/bar for a drink and catching some football and the scores. The cafe was full of clothed people!!! It was 78 dgrees that day! People that don't want to be naked, have no intention of being naked around others and aren't at all comfortable with being naked period...have no right visiting, staying or joining a nude/clothing optional resort or club. The Clothing Optional policies, I think, were there to give newbies the chance to warm up and get comfortable with idea and get used to it gradually. I think clubs and resorts just lost interest in being "clothes police" all the time and some of them just turned their heads to this after becoming friends with some of these people. Our club has a "strict" nudity mandatory policy around the pool and recreation center. For the first year we were members...2008...it was NOT inforced at all. After numerous complaints from residents, members (us) and the subject being brought up at Board Meetings...the manager now makes rounds on the weekends busting people that are clothed in these areas. ;) | |
| So, FireProf, what do you think the motivation is for people who have no intention of ever going nude to join clothing optional, and from what you've stated even nudist, resorts? I agree with you, FireProf, the clothing optional policy was probably implemented to help newbies ease into nudism, not to allow them to remain permanently clothed. But, what about those whose significant others attend with the nudist member but don't want to become nudists themselves? Is there no room for such "mixed" couples? Secondly, why do you feel uncomfortable in the presence of clothed people when you're NOT violating any laws or societal norms within the confines of n established nudist area? After all, I've read your other posts about diving nude, working on your car in the garage while nude, walking from your garage into the backyard nude, and even stopping to fill your truck with fuel at a convenience store in the nude because you'd forgotten to put a t-shirt and shorts in the truck when going to your old residence to do repairs. Also, you've stated, I believe, you sat on your front porch drinking coffee either nude or in an open jersey, which does not cover your genitals or buttocks, as well as walking to/from the mailbox with your jersey open (I've done the same with my robe open in both daylight and darkness when it appeared no one was outside), and even went into your front yard while nude to pick up your newspaper, all under the cover of darkness. Why not just approach those wearing clothing in a friendly manner, as you would new nude members or visitors, and engage them in conversation? If they remain stand offish, they SHOULD leave since they have onto your turf. It seems the resort owners are finding it too dificult to attract enough true nudists to make their operations profitable. Perhaps creating exclusive "clubs" where everyone agrees to the rules, perhaps requiring higher fees is the answer. However, in today's PC environment, can it still be done? It seems there's always an attorney willing to take on any cause for the right amount. Just my thought, FireProf. I'm not trying to denigrate your or your family in anyway I'm just not understanding how true, longtime nudists can be made to feel uncomfortable by clothed individuals on your turf. Jim | |
| Before I disect and understand fully what your intention is to my post... I need to try and figure out where you're coming from on this topic. You have stated that you haven't done any social nudist activities...are not very friendly or open to meeting others in a social manner. Spend most, if not all, of your nude time at home...and seem to be speaking of these incidents as though you have some experience in them. I'll explain my post further; I have done all those things you've written about and I've posted them on here but you take them out of context and now think because I drive nude, sit on my porch slightly covered, walk to the mailbox late in the evening and early morning slightly covered and left the house "once" without clothing and almost ran outta fuel, which caused me to fuel up my vehicle in the nude...as someone that wouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable by clothed people at a nude resort or club? I didn't do those things in an exhibitionist way and that's what, I feel, you're implying. How about the many men and women that visit these clubs and resorts...what do YOU think their intent is to visit these types of clubs but they have no intent in disrobing themselves? I'm not sure why people want to do this but they do and it isn't right. There a vastly more places for these people to go and visit and stay...why do they have to visit clothing optional and nude resorts to remain clothed? With all due respect...I sincerely think you should investigate this yourself and visit a clothing optional club or resort and see for yourself what some of us are talking about. | |
| FireProf, I, in no way, meant to imply you're an exhibitionist. It just seems you feel comfortable as a nudist and, therefore, it's hard for me to understand why you or anyone else would be made to feel uncomfortable by people out of their element (that is, fully clothed in a nudist resort). Like you, I'm not sure of their intentions. But, in this politically correct society we live in it seems people look for ways to be offended because they don't believe anyone has a right to offend their sensibilities in anyway. Maybe they're trying to force you out of your rightful place in a nudist resort, where you have paid for the privilege of living or visiting in the nude. Believe me, I support you in your right to live as a nudist. As far as your belief I might be implying you're an exhibitionist. It is NOT my intent. I was told in a private message by a moderator at Naturist-Christians, before being permanently banned without explanation, he feared I might have exhibitionist tendencies because I stated I had stood outside in front of my house, both day and night, with my daughter while she smoked a cigarette or prepared to leave, and once tested the waters by walking in front of my wife and daughter with my robe open. NOTE: My wife is NOT a nudist, nor my daughter, though she hasd been both fully nude and partially nude in front of me while I was totally nude, while her mom was not home. And, as I stated earlier, I have walked both day and night, to and from my mailbox, about 4-5 houses down the street, with my robe open as well as putting out the trash and other small jobs wearing only my open robe. I hope I've clarified myself a bit. Again, I support your's and your family's choices to live as nudists wholeheartedly and hope my family will do the same at some point. Jim | |
| Billyjoe, I think you make an excellent point. Like FireProf's wife, others may have reasons other than modesty for wanting to cover up sometimes. I'd be very happy for my wife to join me in a C/O environment, and eventually adaopt nudism on her own terms, just to see nudism does not necessarily lead to sexual activity among nudists. Jim | |
| I am personally grateful for c/o resorts because my wife would have never gone and tried it if it was manditory nudity. Our first resort we wemt to she was going just to apease me and was determined to stay dressed herself. when we got there aand set up our spot I got nude immediately and took a walk to see the pool by the time I walked back (maybe 10min.) she was nude and loving it. She still insists on going to only c/o clubs because she wants the choice even though she always winds up nude. | |
| Great for you, labrat. I guess the idea of choice can really appeal to the ladies. I was nude very quickly when I went to my first clothing optional event. However, others, men and women, chose to stay clothed throughout. No one seemed bothered by either instance. It's one of the best things about being among non-judgmental people. Jim | |
| I agree that C/O is great for beginners. My wife was the same, not wanting to get nude even though she was almost nude with only a coverup. We havent been anywhere else yet, but we are thinking about going back to the same B&B in a few weeks. I am being patient with her about it, dont want her to take 3 steps back!! If I tried to push her into a NUDE ONLY setting, She would never want to even consider the whole idea... One Day At A Time!! | |
| First...apologies for being one of those that took this thread off topic in the beginning. I have to agree with BotC. But do think that those that are actually hurting nudists are the management staff of these particular resorts. What is a clothing optional resort? Is it a resort that expects everyone to be nude, weather permitting, and has a lax attitude towards those starting out and gives them time to adjust? Is it a resort where there are mostly clothed people and if you'd like to be nude...that's okay too? Is there a perceived balance expected of nude people to clothed? What is the purpose of the nude resorts and what are there policies? When a clothing optional resort allows you to do nude anywhere on the property but then makes comments about being dressed for meals, visiting the front office or having areas where nudity would be acceptable but not permitted...then you have resorts limiting nudity and pushing the clothing aspect of the resort. What is a nude resort? In my opinion, a nude resort is just that...everyone is nude, expected to be nude, weather permitting, and you and management see no reason to wear ANY clothing at all, with exceptions for sun protection. But...here again; when you have management and staff walking around fully dressed and acting as "clothing police", telling others they should be nude, yet allowing their friends to remain covered...that's not right and it hurts nude clubs and resorts. The rules must remain consistent. There shouldn't be rules for these people and those people. If people don't want to follow the rules, regardless of who they are, they should either re-evaluate their presence in that environment or leave. So...though I don't necessarily feel that clothing optional clubs/resorts are hurting nudists...I don't think they are helping all that much. If there's a specific time frame for "getting" comfortable or used to nudity with others, then maybe this will work, and it can help nudist by recruiting newbies. But...If clothing optional is just that...clothing is optional and there is no preference for people to be nude rather than clothed...then it really doesn't hurt but it doesn't help either. | |
| If you go to a tennis club, do you play golf? If you belong to a cigar club, do you smoke cigarettes? If you go to a nudist club, do you wear clothes? It seems to me that nudist clubs are the most forgiving in allowing contrary actions to continually occur... and I think that is hurting nudists. In all my experiences, nude clubs allow time for the newbies to get the drift. This applies to both management and members. They are usually very supportive. But in the end, it is a nudist club and people who want to become members or visit the club should get with the program and be nude. I think clothing optional clubs are allowing the momentum and acceptability for being clothed at nudist clubs, and this is hurting the nudist plight. To me, clothing optional means being clothed when practical, but complete nudity is expected most of the time. It is clothes-tolerant... not nude tolerant. Fireprof... I agree that the management is a guilty party when they remain dressed and waive fingers. This definitey hurts the nude movement because they are looked at as role models and the examples of behavior at their clubs...it is very contrary and just plain dumb. | |
| Instead of being strictly nude-only or clothing-optional, clubs could have clothing-optional days, and be nude-only on the other days. Would this be the best of both worlds? | |
| This is one of the things I liked from my first visit to White Tale Resort that when I went to the office to check in the people working there were nude, I felt out of place with shorts and a T shirt on. They explained that this was a nudist resort and that clothing is not optional and I liked that and told them so. As soon as I went back to the motor home off came my wife’s and my clothing. There must be other nudist resorts that have the same attitude but we have not been to that many to say for sure. If it is a nudist resort then it should be nude and if you want to have clothing on then you are in the wrong place. | |
| Capt, Cheers and thank you for the straight up talk. dbo, IMHO...No! Again, why do you join a golf club? Because you are a golfer. Why do you join a Tennis Club? Because you are a tennis player. Why do you join nudist club? Need I say more. If you really are one, be one and quit the nonsense. | |
| We in this group came up with another term I like better to describe a club. "Nudity Preferred." As we discussed, this makes allowances for the shy newbie, the one sensitive to the sun, and to the weather. However, as the saying goes, "When in Rome..." At a NUDIST club all should be nude! John | |
| The golf club and tennis club analogies do not really apply to nudist clubs. At a golf club or tennis club, there is really nothing else to do but play golf or tennis. However, at a nudist club, the facilities could be used nude or clothed. For instance, nudist clubs have the same kind of swimming pools as everywhere else. Also, nudist clubs rent out facilities that are normally used by textiles, and use them for nude swims. There is a need for both nude-only and clothing-optional clubs. Some people will only disrobe if it is their choice (clothing-optional). Others will want to disrobe, but need a nude-only policy to bring themselves to do it. Personally, I think it is easier to just take your clothes off right away and get over your fears. But not everyone thinks alike, so we need different kinds of clubs for different kinds of people. To address the original question, I do not think that clothing-optional clubs have made much of a difference. AANR membership levels are about the same as they were when I first joined in 1994. | |
| dbo... you're missing the point! Analogies aside, though I thought there were very good analogies, there's NO reason for ANYONE to join a nudist club and not be nude! If you can explain why someone would join a NUDIST club, only to keep their clothes on ALL the time...that's what I'd like to hear. Not that SB's analogies don't fit or don't apply. :( | |
| The only reason to join a nudist club and stay clothed all the time, it seems, would be for perverse desires. Jim | |
| FireProf, I thought the original question was more about GOING to nudist clubs than JOINING them. To answer your question, people have already given reasons for joining a nudist club yet wanting to remain clothed, such as reluctant spouses. I also think that some people see a nudist club more as a place to live (a retirement community), and forget that it is a NUDIST club. | |
| There are many, many more "retirement communities" than there are nudist clubs. WHY would anyone want to live/retire in a nudist club and state..."oh, I forgot this was a nudist club." Come on...that's pretty thin. ;) | |
| I have seen plenty of people that live at nudist clubs, yet are rarely (if ever) seen nude. How do you explain that? | |
| THAT'S part of the reason for this discussion!!! Why would anyone live in a nudist resort and NOT be nude? I'm not talking about during times when it's not practical...I'm talking about people that live in nudist resorts and are ALWAYS clothed! What do YOU make of that? | |
| ...and I for one am glad it won't go away. Please read the first line fo this topic again. It says " This group is about people who desire to live nude all the time and create communities or areas that would support their desire" yet I keep hearing reasons and excuses to the opposite from group members. I know what my motivation is, do you? Am I missing something in the concept of the group? I get so tired nudist wannabes or should I say the clothing optional one foot in and one foot out types minimalizing the concept and benefits of social nudity and nude living. Most of these people have more excuses and continually look for excuses and inclusionary rights to not be nude. So if that is the case, why do you insist on bringing the textile mentality to a nudist resort/club. Dump the clothes, get with the program, quit the excuses and the politically correct and inclusive mumbo-jumbo and get real. I choose to belong and go to nudist resorts/club because I am a NUDIST and not afraid to say it or be it. I truly desire to live nude full-time and I am committed to do what I can to make that a reality. I think it adds very positive benefits to my life and I enjoy it. Do clothed people at nudist resorts/clubs bother me... frankly yes, because they are not nudists, don't get nudism, usually expound on the joys of nudism because it is hip to do, and totally infringe on my nude sanctuary in this superficial textile based society. When I ask them why they are clothed, I usually here that it is their right to be clothed or not, it is clothing optional and nudist are supportive of that. WELL PLEASE take your right to the Mall and don't come back until you are ready to enjoy social nudity completely... get it! | |
| BJJB Quote: I have to say that I am glad I found this place. I have been on a number of other "nudist" websites and it is quite refreshing to be in a place with real people who actually participate in discussion as well as moderators who are willing to put in the effort and take the time to make sure to keep things on track. "I am actually considering paying for the upgrade now. I initially didn't care to since I'm not here to collect internet friends or look at naked pictures, but the more I am here socializing and finding real people, the more I want to support what we have going on here." End Quote: BJJB, We are aware of your situation. You have a reluctant wife...many men do. It is NOT the intent to single you out but to use your situation and your opinions that bring about his reply. The name of this group is Absolute Naturists. We are suppose to be a group of nudists, hardcore nudists, not clothing optionalists but nudists. Your quote above lead the group owner to believe that that is what you were. Since some of your postings...we've become privy to information regarding YOUR particular situation. Your reluctant wife and body image issues. We all understand that and many can sympathize with this with their willing partners and their reluctant ones. The subject of this particular topic and many that SunBunny posts are directed towards those opinions and ideas of those "hardcore" nudists. A clothing optionalist is always going to want to error on the side of the clothed person and give them the larger benefit of the doubt. As Absolute Nudists/Naturists...we've given as much as we will give. There is a time limit to getting comfortable with nudity and social nudity. If you can't get comfortable with it or refuse...then why the heck are you visiting a nude venue? If a place is described as nudist/nude...why would a clothed person that has no intention of being nude....visit or consider visiting in the first place. A place for a reluctant partner to get comfortable with nudity is at home, the backyard, the woods, the beach...not at a nude resort! Visiting a nude club or resort is like learning how to run. You don't start to run before you can walk and walk quickly. Getting comfortable at home and outside and then outside with others in a more wide open space where you can be alone but not really alone...should happen before you even attempt to introduce a nude club or resort. In retrospect...YES...it is now my opinion that clothing optional clubs/resorts do hurt nudists. Why? Because eventually the C/O club/resort will be over run by clothed people and the nudists will leave....thus...we will lose another nudist venue to the clothed population. It's happened already and it will happen again. FP | |
| BJ, let's talk about the Big Picture. You are a strong person in your convictions and I respect that. I am as well. It is the examples we set that make our strengths and convictions of value to others, not us. We are mere drops of water in a very large pond, but our ripples spread in many directions. We are viewed as role models to many like it or not and that is a responsibility. When a person looks to us on the acceptance of social nudity, the values or benefits we place in belonging to or going to nudist clubs/resorts, our acceptance of people for who they are and not what their bodies look like... we many times determine their mindsets and future. Again, we are the examples. How we act at a nudist club is an example many will follow. How a nudist club acts will set the examlpe also, they are a role model that will be followed just as we are. If we minimize that we also have minimized our own convictions and beliefs in social nudity. Clubs have minimized their purpose in being a nudist club. That my friend is the Big Picture and the real picture, like it or not. I totally understand that and accept that. I don't cry, I set the example. It is what gives value to everything I do. Why else would I give my time on things like this group. It is my hope that I may in some way have an impact in another persons life or way of thinking. That is true value and essentially priceless. Thta is what I am about. It is not about my ego, someone telling me what to do or not do, requirements, hardcore or not hardcore, or getting my feelings hurt. As I said, I am a strong person and I can deal with all that. I am quite sure you can too. It is all about the Big Picture involved in opening the positive aspects of nude living and nude recreation, overcoming body acceptance issues, allowing our trueselves to be revealed, to not fear others rejection and to live our lives honestly, openly and happily. Are you with me on this, I hope you are. Anybody else have a thought on the Big Picture? | |
| Great arguments on both sides. Last night, in bed, I rememberd a story I read long before I became a nudist about a lady (Who as I recall was 80 years old) who lived in a nudist resort. Her comment was something to the effect though she was too old to go nude she loved seeing all the nude young people around her, giving her a sense of youthfulness all over again. Like BJJB, I too wish society at large was comfortable with nudity, whether everyone chose to be nude or not. I've experienced the clothing-optional environment and everyone, in every state of dress or totally nude, appeared comfortable. In fact, the first time I went I overheard a first-time, non-nudist, visitor say though she wasn't sure whether she wanted to participate in shedding her clothes she had no problem with others being nude in her presence. I have requested to attend a nude-required setting but it's couples-only, unless sponsored by a couple. As yet, I don't have anyone to attend with. I would have no problem being nude (I've done so three times so far) but the one person who's expressed interest has not even attended the clothig optional event yet, citing lack of a tan, temperature, etc. I certainly support nude-only venues as long as clothing-optional locations exist as well. And, I, no doubt, would feel uncomfortable visiting a venue where I'd be the only one nude - kinda goes against my initial statement, I know, about desiring a society accepting of public nudism as the norm. But, I'm sure I'd not be the only one nude in such a setting. Yes, I've had the desire to go shopping, pump gas, go for a stroll, etc. sans clothing but realize I can't ithout facing shock and, worse, arrest for lewdness by virtue of being nude in public. Sorry if I've strayed a bit. To get back on track, I say let's allow nudist-required as well as clothing optional resorts and let everyone choose which they want to attend. Jim | |
| BJJB...sorry man but you are the one that isn't getting it. You'll have to go and re-read my post and SB's post and any others that are trying to explain what it is we are talking about. Peace! :) | |
| SB...can I/we get a clarification on the topic? We seem to be all over the place with what we are discussing and I think we've gotten off track. There are clothing optional clubs. There is no need to be nude anywhere on the grounds. I'm not aware of any off hand because those clubs, that we visit, refer to themselves as NUDE clubs. Here's where this topics hits home with us as nudists. We belong to a "nude" club. It's not clothing optional, it's a nude club. When you visit, you are told that it's a nude club, you're expected to be nude, weather permitting. As time passed, our club began to become lax in their policies about nudity. Our "nude" club has been reduced to..."you must be nude on the pool deck or recreation area." That policy isn't enforced as well. SO..."clothing optional" policies are hurting nudists and nude clubs. It's either one or the other...it shouldn't be a nude club but if you want to wear clothes...that's okay. Those that desire that should visit a clothing optional venue. ;) | |
| You can lead a horse to water, but you can't always make them drink. BJJB, I have to agree with FP, you just don't get it. To continue to try to explain is just not worth it, you are not ready to drink. FP, I agree that this post has gotten somewhat off track but I do not think restating it will help. All anybody has to do is re-read the initial post at the top, it was very clear. If you want to post your thoughts, please re-read the topic and think about it first. Seems to me that this topic has brought to the surface the real issue as to why it has gotten off track. The same can be applied for many other topics in this group. It is simply because we have the majority of people, not all, claiming to be nudists when they are really not. They don't get the concepy of nude living. They are afraid to leave their homes, they are afraid to tell family and friends that they are nudist, essentially they are afraid to be nudists. The entire premise of this group is about being activists in bringing nudity to the forfront as a positive way of living. If you are going to be an activist, you can not be afraid of taking actions or the consequences of those actions. The majority of people in this group, may well be hurting nudists by expounding on nudism when they don't even get it or live it. They are basking in the light of being a nudist when they are not. This hurts nudism. If you are going to be a nudist, be a nudist... it is that simple. | |
| It's all good, thanks for the lively discussion. That is what this group is all about. SB | |
| LOL... No harm, No foul, No blood, No ambulance-Chick Hearn (Voice of the Los Angeles Lakers)! I don't think we are as far off as you think. "I" think we are talking about two different things! Because I do agree with your ideas on "clothing optional" and not FORCING anyone to be nude. ;) | |
| I've started to weigh in on this one about a dozen times but I had to do some real introspection on what my utopia would be versus what the reality can be. I don't really see how clothing-optional/nudity-preferred environments "hurt" our cause. We keep saying that we want to be accepted by society, to be seen as normal, and so on. Wouldn't the perfect world be where it doesn't matter what someone is wearing or not wearing, and each individual can choose and have that choice be accepted? Is a nudity-required environment just as freedom constraining as a clothing-required environment? My preference would be where everyone can be nude, and the majority would choose to do so. I'd have no problem with a nudity-required club, but if I wanted to bring family along I would want them to have the option to be nude or clothed as they choose since not everyone shares my absolute naturist comfort level. Hopefully the environment is encouraging and they join in, but if they don't we can still enjoy time together. - Tim | |
| The only club we have been to is nude only... we have only been twice and the first time was during a clothing optional 5k event (although everybody was nude)... the first time, my wife, who was reluctant, took about one hour to shed her clothes and we went by the pool and she was nude... during the run she was a course volunteer and she wore shorts with no top... during dinner she wore a shirt with no bottom... during the dance she wore a sun dress... so I thought not bad for her (and my) first time... I was totally nude the whole weekend... the second time we went she was totally nude within the first five minutes but for some reason she would wear shorts to the pool area and then take them off and walk around with nothing... during dinner she wore a half pareo and seemed to get along fine as some of the female members were also wearing a bottom cover... I was totally nude... our next venture we are going to to a club that has somewhat of a CO policy where they require all males to be totally nude and CO for women and children... once I experience that, then maybe I'll throw my opinion out there... :) | |
| elguapo, my wife is very similar to yours in how she behaves at the resort. I can't figure her out. She has no problem being nude in the pool, but prefers to wear something walking from the pool area to the camp site or when in the clubhouse. I asked her why she insists on wearing a sundress or other covering, and she said because it looks pretty. ^%$#%@#$ utter confusion! She hates for people to "look at her", but yet said she wears something because it looks pretty, which logically means she desires for people to look at her... at least with a dress on. I've tried to probe her mind to understand her reasoning, but ot no avail. She says she doesn't have body issues or feel embarrassed if people see her naked, but by her actions, I'm not convinced she is sincere in her statement. I've posted this link in another thread a long time ago, but I'll post it again here. It is possibly the most comprehensive argument in favor of the nudity-expected resort policy, and explains with good reasonings for that policy. (MP3 audio link) http://feeds.bareoaks.ca/~r/NaturistLivingShow/~5/xBS7Vqy6BOY/nudity_1.mp3 | |
| I like the nude only clubs. However, there was a club that used to have tours of the grounds one day a week for a couple hours where people were not required to undress, with the stipulation that if they chose not to undress after the tour, they would be asked to leave and their grounds fees refunded. Someone also had a mid-week womens' brunch. I felt that was reasonable. Letting folks wander around all day dressed defeats the point of it being a nudist club. | |
| Calmnude, the non-nude tour with a refund and requirement to leave afterward seems reasonable. While it doesn't eliminate the voyuers during the tour it does ensure they can't just "hang out" to feed their perversion either. Jim | |
| Clothing Optional resorts and clubs don't hurt nudists. Some of you guys seem pretty militant about nudity, and I respect everyone's personal opinions but I think that this discriminatory mindset towards anyone wearing clothing would be detrimental to naturism. It is essentially saying that only a certain type of person should be allowed to visit. It's kinda like having a club that only allow people who wear Prada. To me naturism/nudism is about personal comfort and freedom, and not about how much genitalia is exposed. I usually don't wear anything whenever I visit a resort, but I don't really care if anyone else is dressed or not as long as they don't have a problem with my nudity or what I am wearing. This notion that someone wearing clothing is taking away from the nudist experience is somewhat ridiculous to me. Why go to a nudist resort if you aren't going to get naked? Nudity isn't the totality of social naturism. It's like asking Why go to the beach if you aren't going to swim? Or why Why buy a fast car if you aren't going to go more than the speed limit on the freeway? Also if you're a nudist you probably already turned off that part of your brain that controls self consciousness, so if you feel uncomfortable around people wearing clothing, you should probably put on some clothes and reevaluate yourself. C/O doesn't hurt nudists, or resorts or anything. It's just a different flavor. | |
| Very well said, Gaijin! Mandating total nudity at all times is pretty much the same as mandating total clothed-ness at all times. | |
| You are missing the point. We do wear clothes to leave the grounds, when it is too cold, to protect a sunburn. Some women wear bottoms during their period. If this were Europe, there would be no issue. Textiles and nudists co-exist in many places. However, in North America, for a variety of reasons, people have problems with the nude human body. Nudist clubs became places where people/families could be nude without fear of arrest or persecution. With the thousands of miles of coastline, there are only a few dozen places where nudity is allowed. Nudity is still equated with sex, and not a wholesome way to live in many quarters. Many women feel uncomfortable with groups of dressed men wandering around. I have heard this said many times. I hear constant complaints from single men about the scarcity of available nudist women. With the increase in c/o clubs and resorts and the AANR membership staying about the same, I don't think this is the answer. Perhaps it is just a difference in perception. To some it is a wonderful way to live. To others it is a casual recreational mode. | |
| That's kinda my point. Here in America some people treat "nudism" like it's an endangered species that is going to completely go away if we don't create nude reservations. I met a woman from Sweden at a resort, and someone asked her how long has she been a nudist. She replied "I'm not". She said that in parts of Europe if you go to the beach, it's not out of the ordinary for people to change into swimsuits out in the open and that nudity at acceptable places such as a beach is a non issue. Keeping in mind that you aren't going to see people walking around nude in other public places or doing things like checking the mail naked because there's no reason for it. I think with women feeling uncomfortable probably has more to do with men acting awkward and creepy around them rather than having an issue of men being dressed. Some men do and say creepy things and are completely oblivious to it. And I don't think I've ever seen an example of any nudist men being uncomfortable being naked in front of anyone and everyone. | |
| I never been to a resort style place but i think i would prefer the modern look of those resorts over colony woodsy types. Like Caliente for instance. | |
| Just seems funny that "Absolute Naturists" are agruing the merits of clothing optional and hobby nudists! | |
| Well, the original question was "does clothing optional hurt nudists?" and I don't see how it can. I'd argue that the growth of CO is more on the path to universal acceptance of the clothed/unclothed state than mandatory nudity would be. Mandatory dress and mandatory nakedness are two sides of the same coin; it seems to me that freedom of choice and general acceptance is a much better situation. My preference would be to be nude whenever practical, of course. :) | |
| Hmmmm! Gymnostim your argument CO may be more a path to universal acceptance of nudism is a good one. I would love to live in an environment where nudism would be accepted whether others choose to participate or not. Jim | |
| With the risk of taking this topic...Off Topic, I'd like to refocus on what this group is about and who it was intended for...I think! ;) This group is about Absolute Naturists/Nudists (naturists/nudists being used in the same context). It's about people who live nude when possible, clothed when practical. People who understand, promote and live as nudists most everyday of their lives. This group, I think, wasn't for those that just want to visit a club or resort but don't want to be forced to be nude and think that mandatory nudity is wrong and we should all have a choice whether or not to be nude or not. This is a "Absolute" nude group...not a clothing optional group. I have made my opinions known about clothing optional. There are places that are clothing optional, there is a need for clothing optional...clothing optional has it's purpose but...There are also "nude" places, places where you are expected to be nude...like everyone else. If you feel that going to a place that's gonna force you to be nude and you don't want to be nude...then don't go to those places. I think SB's intent for this original question was from an absolute naturists point of view. Though you may be giving your opinion as an absolute naturist...it just seems strange that...as absolute naturists...we seem to be arguing for the cause that is actually the opposite direction of this particular group of Absolute Naturists. So...from an Absolute Naturists point of view...you'd have to say that the clubs that have gone clothing optional and the resorts that are clothing optional are hurting Absolute Naturists because clothing was never our intent at a "nude" club or resort! Don't you wonder why they are called..."Clothing Optional" clubs or resorts? If the intent was for you to be "clothed"...they'd call them..."nudity optional" resorts and not the other way around. The purpose of these clubs was nudity preferred not clothing preferred! ;) | |
| What makes the discussion of clothing-optional relevant to this group is that clothing-optional was intended as a strategy to attract more people to nudism. Since AANR membership has not grown since some clubs became clothing-optional, I think it is fair to say that the clothing-optional strategy / compromise has failed to deliver on its promise. I like BareOnTheCape's idea -- Instead of making compromises (clothing-optional) at the nudist clubs, encourage the textile resorts to make the compromises in the direction of clothing-optional. By the way.... I see Absolute Naturists as a discussion group, a place where different perspectives and ideas can be explored, not as a group of people who must all think alike and where there is only one correct viewpoint. | |
| I see what you are saying Fireprof, but does does CO "hurt" nudists, as the topic states? I don't think that it does, and I'd venture to say that it helps. A good example is that when my family goes to a resort. I'll be "absolute" and be nude the whole time. My wife will have something on or not according to her comfort level. My kids would generally be nude as well. So if a CO club allows 4 family members to have a positive nudist experience together, that sounds better than a nudity-required club that would probably not get our visit at all. A family visiting is 100% helpful to our movement as a whole, since that's where younger members will come from in the future. Now, if a club has more clothed members than nude members then there's some other issue, and that needs to be looked at from an admissions standpoint...they're not letting in people that are there for the right reasons. | |
| I'm not really trying to argue against the idea of an "Absolute Naturist", I'm just trying to make a point that seems to be overlooked. To be honest the original question is kinda loaded. It seems that people skip the logical reasoning for wearing clothing and jump straight to considering it as an act of defiance against naturism. I don't think the problem really has to do with people wearing clothes as much as the extra label "Absolute". It somewhat implies that if a person doesn't spend every second nude that they're not a serious nudist. I answered the original question twice in my first post, but I'll answer it again as clearly as I can be. Clothing optional venues do not hurt nudists. Clothing only bothers the people that let it bother them. None of these places have ever required people to wear clothes which is probably the only way clothing can hurt naturism. dbo mentioned that AANR membership hasn't grown since some clubs have introduced clothing optional, and I would argue that unless there has been a drastic decline in membership at those places that it's proof that clothing optional isn't hurting naturism. I could totally understand if someone chooses to wear shorts or some sort of bottoms instead of having to carry around a towel all day or if someone decided to wear a top instead of slathering on sunscreen every hour and I wouldn't take it as a personal attack on naturism. I'm sure everyone would prefer a place where everyone ran around naked, but this role reversal of nudists being offended at someone wearing clothes is comical and a little unexpected to me. Nudists aren't one dimensional, there is so much more to naturists and naturism than nudity. Even if someone is wearing clothes at a clothing optional resort intended for nudity they aren't hurting naturism because they paid to be at a clothing optional place in the first place. I get the feeling that some people here are a little too serious and forgetting the recreation part of nude recreation. I have a few question to everyone who is bothered with the idea of someone wearing something in a nudist resort. If you are an Absolute Naturist, why do you care if someone else is wearing clothing? How does what someone else is wearing directly affect you? Would you have a problem with someone wearing clothing if they felt it was too cold not to wear them, or if they were more prone to sunburns or skin cancer? **Note To SunBunny** Keep in mind when you are talking about "the concept of nude living" that not everyone has the luxury of living in a nudist community even if they wanted to.(I think I read that you live in one) Some people don't live close enough to a resort and have other obligations such as jobs or school that prevent them from living nude 24/7. Some people have family or friends who are super religious or who think that all nudity is sexually related regardless of how much "activism" on their part. In my opinion, living in a nudist resort doesn't make you any more of a nudist than someone who lives with roommates who only has the chance to be nude in their bedroom, one is just better for a social setting. | |
| We recently stayed at 1 club that is officially clothing optional, where the nudity rate was almost 100%. That actually made it easier for the rest of my family to join in and be nude the whole time. We also spent the night at a club that is officially nudity required where the nudity rate was closer to 50%. This made the rest of my family uncomfortable. So maybe it's not the club policy, it's the participation rate that is key. :) Although personally I'll be nude anywhere it's allowed, unless there's some other issue going on that's making me uncomfortable. |
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