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Absolute Naturists The limit of the law
| Laws leave us few places to enjoy the freedom of being nude. To feel the sun on our skin rather than the rub of textiles. So who goes the limit of the law? Where do you go dressed to the legal minimum. Recently I have been feeling very hypocritical about going out dressed in more. So now when I go to the nearby stores (weather permitting, and that is most of the time here) I go in sandals and a pair of shorts. So far I am the only shirtless one at the CVS, 7/11, and grocery. Most seem to ignore it. some look it make a joking comment about being cold and very few seem irritated by it. | |
| I push it sometimes but...I'm very, very selective about where, what time and the possibility of being seen by those that may be offended or...call the cops!! LOL With that in mind...I go get the mail with just a baseball jersey on. Sometimes it's buttoned...most times it's open. It's usually very late in the evening or very early in the morning. I have walked to the mailbox completely nude at about 3:30am. I walk out to the front yard and get the newspaper in the nude but again....very early in the morning. Cooler outside temps...I switch to a robe and usually walk to the mailbox and back with it open. I've sat out on our front porch in the very early morning and watched a lightening and thunder storm while nude. I drive naked quite a bit...a lot actually! I've worked in my garage on my classic car in the nude and gone from the house to the backyard, through the garage with the door open...in the nude and have been seen/caught by the neighbors across the way...but no cops so...I think they are either okay with it or...don't really care! There is one neighbor that lives with her teenage daughter that saw me nude in the backyard. She's come over a few times just to talk. Once she had to have me sign something for the HOA and then told me..."I think you should be able to do whatever you want in your backyard and if people have a problem with it...they shouldn't be looking in your backyard!" She's a great neighbor. Several two story houses face our backyard and I'm naked out there ALL the time...and at ALL hours of the day. I think if they've seen me...they either don't care or realize that I'm doing things, going from one place to the next and NOT being an exhibitionist...so they don't bother me by calling the cops. Too bad the rest of the world can't be like our neighbors next door and the several families across the street and that can see into our backyard :)! | |
| Living in a city it is very restrictive. However, In September I had to go to the hospital for surgery and I was taking a bus there. I was waring a kilt in the finest Sotttish/Irish tradition. Oh, Yeah that felt liberating. Comming home the nurse asked me about underneath. My reply was "That's clasified information". She said "good answer". The hospital instructions had said to ware loosly fitting clothes as I had back surgery and needed to avoid having pressure on the back. Would I do that again you yah you betcha. | |
| I have a backyard that is fenced in and private. I am back there naked all the time. I have a gate to the back yard that is mesh and I walk to the trash cans naked all the time even though you can see through it but not well. I walk to the garage and pack my car naked when I go somewhere because I never put on clothes until it is absolutely necessary. I have walked to the mail box in front naked or with an open robe because I live in a very quiet neighborhood. Like fireprof, it is always late at night or early in the morning. I have driven home from my club naked a few times, again late at night or early in the morning. I have even taken the trash cans to the front curb nude on gabage day. It can be done if you do it at the right times. | |
| I agree completely. It's rather a shame that ppl can't walk around and do whatever however they're dressed - or not! Although, to be quite fair, there is a town in VT that has a clothing optional law, where you can walk around nude around town, without a care in the world, and without having the cops being called on you. Man, I have to move there! Enjoy your nude freedoms when ever you can! | |
| That's Brattleboro, VT. But it has no clothing optional law, it just has no law regarding nudity. They just don't see the need to make a law regarding dress. Vermont is a very laissez-faire state. They did have a law banning nudity for a short time after someone complained but the council voted it out as unnecessary. | |
| Wow!! I really like Brattleboro's attitude. Has anyone noticed how the "liberals" are the ones who constantly desire to create laws to curb our freedoms and make us more dependent upon the government? Let's allow maimum freedom in all areas of our lives, and it definitely includes the right to be naked. Jim | |
| The problem with Brattleboro is the fact there is no law, kids we hanging out downtown nude. When that made news, they began having more sightings of men walking nude in and around town who were not even from the area. How many of these people were actually nudists. A lot of people especially men are nothing but exhibitionists that get off on exposing themselves. It is these actions that make it difficult for really nudists like ourselves. Just because there is no law against nudity does not mean we should walk down main street nude. I love being a nudist, but I will not take advantage of my freedom to the point I am imposing on another persons freedom. It is the actions of the exhibitionists and others that commit lewd acts that make it difficult for real nudists like us to continue to gain acceptance. | |
| Bryan you have stated the prolem well. But what about just pushing the envelope? Some mention how they drive to a place nude and then put on pants and Tshirt. I am wondering why guys are bothering with the Tshirt when society says upper body nudity is ok for men. I've been doing my shopping at the plaza across the street from where I live, and the 7/11 in shorts and sandals. It doesn't seem that anyone is overly concerned about that. So if we like the textile free lifestyle why not at least be as textile free as we are allowed? | |
| One of the great things about nudism is how we are accepted for who we are as a person. Our status, appearance, race, etc do not matter as we are very accepting. The reason nudists are the nicest people I have been around is respect. I will live and die by that. Jen and I believe in being nice and respectful to everyone. For us, it does not matter if there is no law against nudity or I can go anywhere without a shirt. I feel if I did do that, it would be disrespectful for other. I will not be that way. Pushing the envelope can be good to a point. When it starts to offend others and turn people off, then it becomes a problem. Pushing the envelope can also have negative effects for nudists also. As nudists, we are a minority. Nudism is not for everyone. I am proud to be a nudist and as I get older I am more and more open about it. I don't want to convert everyone. I would rather educate others about what nudism is about. If they find that it is not for them, at least they will have an understanding and a new respect for our way of life. If they can then respect our nudist lifestyle, they can grow to respect others who are different also. | |
| Bryan, I see your point about lewdness where there is no law. I certainly believe we should all respect the rights of others. However, by NOT going shirtless where you may (private businesses have the right to post or verbally state their rules - "No shirt, no shoes, no service", for example. But, it seems you are bending over so far in an effort NOT to offend textiles you are allowing them to impede upon your freedoms. They certainly have the right to turn away if the sight of a naked male torso is offensive. Municipalities establish health codes, prohibiting persons from entering food establishments without certain clothing and, perhaps, shoes and socks. Again, the indiidual owner(s) have the right to establish more stringent standards if they so choose. I am not suggesting we should all just say "To hell with them (textiles)" and walk about, lounge about, etc. anywhere we please in the nude, even if not prohibited by laws or ordinances. However, why not push the limits a bit? It's the way things are changed. Jim | |
| I will go without a shirt where I feel it appropriate. However there are not a lot of places in public I think it is appropriate to go without a shirt. If I am working in my yard or working out by running or walking is one thing. I will not go into a store without a shirt or walk down main street. I use do not think it is right. When you state in other posts that you walk in front of your house with your robe open, I would never do that. I respect my neighbors and they respect me. I would never consider doing that and too me, that is a form of exhibitionism rather than nudism. | |
| I will go without a shirt where I feel it appropriate. However there are not a lot of places in public I think it is appropriate to go without a shirt. If I am working in my yard or working out by running or walking is one thing. I will not go into a store without a shirt or walk down main street. I use do not think it is right. When you state in other posts that you walk in front of your house with your robe open, I would never do that. I respect my neighbors and they respect me. I would never consider doing that and too me, that is a form of exhibitionism rather than nudism. | |
| Bryan, I respect your point of view. Customs do dictate societal norms and, therefore, kinda tell us where shirts ad other clothing are appropriate. As far as wearing my robe open in front of my house, I have not done it to show disrespect for my neighbors and, to the best of my knowledge, I've not been seen by anyone, unless behind their windows. If I ever thought I might offend anyone one I certainly would not do so. It's, for me, I guess just been a bit of experimentation to understand their tolerances and acceptance of nudism, not as exhibitionism. Jim | |
| Sometimes people will not say anything if they are offended, sometimes they will. Unfortunately when some are offended by something, they go so far and conflict can result. We live in the greatest country in the world and I truly believe people forget that sometimes. I would love to be nude everywhere I can be, but unfortunately that is not possible. I just feel we have to respect others at all cost. if you do that, we in turn gain respect and more understanding on our beliefs. I do not think you are an exhibitionist, just someone who loves nudism like me. But we have to be careful. I cannot relate to the extreme liberal values that arose from the 60s hippie generation. In my opinion that time period and philosophy led to a lot of conflicts that did not do any good. When people get to the point that they are so extreme about anything, nothing good can come from it. Just look at what happened yesterday as the result of someone being extreme combined with delusional and mentally unstable. I feel we need to step back and make an effort to be respectful of other rights as well as our rights so we can all live the lifestyle we independently choose. By doing this, good results will follow with more understanding and respect for anyone who chooses to be unique! | |
| Thanks for your reply, Bryan. I guess we just initially misunderstood each other. It seemed you were labeling me as an exhibitionist when I said I'd walkewd to the mailbox and back and stood in front of my house with my robe open. Believe me, if at any time I have observed or thought someone was outside or might see me, I've closed my robe to avoid possibly offending them. I do, indeed, enjoy nudism and want to live clothes-free as much as possible. Possibly, I have pushed the limits a bit, perhaps because this is all still fairly new to me (about 8 months now). I, too, am conservative in politics and my social life. (In fact, when I told a friend, via email, about becoming a nudist, he commented it did not seem very conservative of me. When I go out into public areas, besides my own street, I am properly clothed, sans underwear since nothing is exposed, but can understand others' viewpoints about pushing society's views and norms to try to expand acceptance. I'm sure I'll never go nude as a form of protest or for the thrill of shocking others' sensibilities. Jim | |
| I actually consider myself more conservative also, but I also have some liberal feelings also. As a conservative I am more of a fiscal conservative and believe in hard work, being honest, and respectful to others. I do not believe we are entitled to anything but the opportunity to have the freedom to live out your dreams if you are wiling to work for it. I also believe we should stand tall and protect our country and our borders at all costs. If we are attacked, then we should kick ass until we stop the evil that attacked us. The liberal in me is that I believe that everyone has the right to live anyway they choose. If we want to be nudists, we should have that right in appropriate places and not force our nudity on others that do mot want to see it. I believe gays and lesbians should have the right to be married legally. Marriage is a commitment, and if they are willing to do such that, why should the gay community be deprived of that opportunity. I believe that anyone should have the right to practice any religion. The same goes for political views. I do believe we have the right, but I do not feel that anything should be forced upon someone. If someone I am talking to asked me about nudism, I will try and answer their questions and educate them. If they decide it is not for them, that is fine. I would then hope that they would have a new understanding and then more respect of our choices. | |
| Bryan, I think you are more politically conservative than you think. As far as homosexuality, I have no problem with it as long as no one tries to force themselves and their lifestyle on me. I'm even okay with marriage for and among them, once legalized, if ever. Honestly, with few exceptions, I'd say so-called liberals or progressives are the ones trying to force their views and choices upon society as a whole. Progressives, as many now prefer to be called (Progressives by the way, date back to the beginning of the 20th century and have given us many of the social and fiscal woes we suffer today), have given us the Great Society, the federal income tax, popular election of U.S. Senators, and Social Security, have held down those they claim to want to help, and have forced radical agendas and lifestyles upon us. As far as defense of this nation and its borders, I could not agree with you more. But, again, the liberals/Progressives have prevented us from fighting to win or even defending our own borders against invasion. We all are subjected to intrusive pat downs or full body scans at airports because we may not profile (liberal/Progressive agenda again). And, by the way, I am a 24-year Air Force Noncommissioned Officer (NCO) retiree and have worked for the last 17 years in Security for a major hotel/resort on the Las Vegas Strip, defending the rights and freedoms of others to enjoy themselves within the limits of the law without infringing upon the rights of others. It's been fun exchanging ideas with you. Jim | |
| Posted by Jim: [Quote Bryan, I think you are more politically conservative than you think. As far as homosexuality, I have no problem with it as long as no one tries to force themselves and their lifestyle on me. I'm even okay with marriage for and among them, once legalized, if ever. Jim...did the voting public vote on YOUR marriage? If you "don't have a problem" with gays..."as long as they don't force themselves or their lifestyle on you"...why do we need a law that states they can be married? And from the sound of your last sentence in this paragraph...sounds like you won't be voting on this! Honestly, with few exceptions, I'd say so-called liberals or progressives are the ones trying to force their views and choices upon society as a whole. Progressives, as many now prefer to be called (Progressives by the way, date back to the beginning of the 20th century and have given us many of the social and fiscal woes we suffer today), have given us the Great Society, the federal income tax, popular election of U.S. Senators, and Social Security, have held down those they claim to want to help, and have forced radical agendas and lifestyles upon us. Huh...I thought Bryan was the more politically conversative of the two of you! I've listen to both sides of the arguement and I find that when someone blames the other group/party/political party for something...it's entirely their fault we are in the mess we are in. That is simply NOT true! As far as defense of this nation and its borders, I could not agree with you more. But, again, the liberals/Progressives have prevented us from fighting to win or even defending our own borders against invasion. We all are subjected to intrusive pat downs or full body scans at airports because we may not profile (liberal/Progressive agenda again). Do these pat downs and full body scans frighten you? Are you not concerned about your safety onboard an aircraft? Don't the news reports of suspected terrorists being apprehended before getting onboard a plane warrant these extra security measures? NOTHING is perfect but I tell ya...being a nudist...pat downs and full body scans don't bother me in the least! I wished they'd let us fly naked...that would take care of the terrorist problem! And, by the way, I am a 24-year Air Force Noncommissioned Officer (NCO) retiree and have worked for the last 17 years in Security for a major hotel/resort on the Las Vegas Strip, defending the rights and freedoms of others to enjoy themselves within the limits of the law without infringing upon the rights of others. End Quote] I appreciate your service to our country and for the work you do in security. But...on our next trip to LV...we will be staying at the Bellagio! ;) | |
| FireProf, regarding "gay" marriage, the courts have indeed become embroiled in this issue, along with state and national lawmakers. So, in fact, it will have to be legalized. I was married by a minister; however, my wife and I did have to obtain a marriage license (required by law) so, in effect, someone did indeed vote on my marriage and all others since marriage licenses were inacted. Concerning airport security, the Israelis DO profile and have not had an airline hijacked since they implemented such procedures. No, I'm not worried about the pat downs or body scans; however, it is an invasion of privacy for anyone who does not want to be felt up or viewed as if nude by strangers. I agree, let's all fly nude, it'd be alot more fun. Also, since the Muslim zealots would be offended by the sight of nude women, it could serve as a great deterrent, though it would not stop all hijackings by the mentally deranged or those trying to make political statements. As far as your stay at the Bellagio, excellent choice, under the same umbrella corporation as the one I work for. And, who knows, if you visit the poker room you might meet my wife, Lan (Or Lannie as her name tag identifies her) there. Jim | |
| FireProf, I missed one point you made. You're absolutely right, a single group is NOT responsible for all the woes created by Washington. Unfortunately, we have only two major political parties in control and both have moved away from the Constitution. Both do share blame for the mess we're in. And, of course, a D oR after one's name does not guarantee liberalism or conservatism as many RINOs have demonstrated. Jim | |
| "FireProf, regarding "gay" marriage, the courts have indeed become embroiled in this issue, along with state and national lawmakers. So, in fact, it will have to be legalized. I was married by a minister; however, my wife and I did have to obtain a marriage license (required by law) so, in effect, someone did indeed vote on my marriage and all others since marriage licenses were inacted." Come on Jim...you know that's not what I'm talking about. If people "don't" have a problem with gays...then stop hiding behind "the laws". We don't tell you...you have to love a woman. We don't tell you...you have to live a certain place, buy a certain car or work a certain job...Why is it OUR business who you marry and love??? I'm fairly certain that your tune would change if we substituted "gays" for "nudists". What if the law stated...YOU HAVE TO WEAR CLOTHES ALL THE TIME...even at home! And...there are certain laws on the books in many states that forbid and it is illegal to have sex with your wife in certain positions. Maybe we should start putting some of those issues on the ballots to vote on! LOL ;) | |
| Actually, it is NOT a law that you need a marriage license. In fact, if you get a marriage license, then you are de facto placing your marriage under government controll and registering yourselves as corporate entities governed by the UCC. Any couple can be common law married (no, not the 7 year living together thing) by simple declaration and recording with signature of at least two witnesses using the form found in any Family Bible. This form does stand up in court should there ever be any questions about the legalities. Now, as for myself in what I do to be the least possible dressed in public, I frequently ride my bicycle and run on the jogging trails in only my very short cuttoffs and Keen sandals (weather permitting). I avoid going into stores though, except for one time it was so hot and I had run out of water, I went into a Taco Bell to refill my water bottles. I was still about 25 miles away from home so couldn't wait that long to get another drink. None of the people there seemed to give a second thought about my shirtlessness. | |
| Sanman, you got me on the marriage license issue. I do stand corrected. FireProf, as far as the "gay" issue, I am comfortable with their life choice. I associate with "gays" in both my professional and personal life. However, to gain all the rights and privileges granted by society, it must be legally sanctioned. Jim | |
| Since same gender marriage has been brought up, it poses many legal questions. There are legal requirements for marriage and they are used to file divorce. It will be interesting if people can marry same gender then it opens immigration to anyone willing to claim they want to marry through the Fiance Visa. But this thread is about going the limit of the law on nudity. I have not found any one obviously upset by me going to the local stores in shorts and sandals. But it seems many here feel it is offensive to others. I find that even though it is within our rights, it is interesting that it is regarded as improper. However it remains that the law specifically recognizes that men have the right to a bare torso while women do not. Women are harassed for breast feeding in public. But we can go anywhere shirtless unless there is a business policy against it. Yet it seems even nudists choose not to. | |
| Re same sex marriage. I met my wife when we were both involved in amateur theater. There are always gays and lesbians around in the arts. Why, because they are accepted for who they are, not for what they do. I don't know if any of the people I am currently in contact with is gay or not, and I don't care. Yes, the old testament says that the gay lifestyle is an "abomination in the eyes of the Lord." Both the old and new testaments make it abundantly clear that ALL sin is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, and, since we are all sinners it ill behooves any of us to judge another. What someone does with his or her life is between them and whatever deity they acknowledge, if any, as long as it harms no one else. Each of us has enough to worry about with our own sins without worrying about someone elses, I know I do. Be kind to all, judge none, and help whenever you are able to. | |
| Apologies to all... I know better and shouldn't have taken this topic...Off Topic! ;) So...back on topic: It's difficult for me to find laws and ordinances for nudity in my current city. As I've stated...I've surely been seen and maybe the political climate in this city is such that most people figure since I'm not out flashing anyone and just keeping it to my backyard...they either don't care of think I have the right. It usually only takes one busybody neighbor to complain enough that the cops make several visits to your house to inform you to stop or else. It's when you continue that you'll not only face legal action but this is also when City Council, Town Councils start adopting ordinances against nudity...even in your own backyard. I'm continuing to read the many ordinances in my city but many are very boring! LOL | |
| Thanks Smokey... I've read through some of the local ordinances but they are so vague and I've even called a lawyer in the area...$50.00 to answer a question!!? LOL I'll pass and keep reading! LOL | |
| While I do not advocate abusing our top-free rights through exhibitionism (with sexual intent) or by intentionally trying to shock or offend someone, I think we need to exercise our rights so they aren't taken away from us. When the weather is hot and humid, I typically walk around shirt-free because it is more comfortable. I carry a t-shirt in a cloth bag that I sling over my shoulder, and put a t-shirt on before I go inside someplace, and then take it back off as soon as I go outside. By the way, there are no health laws that require us to wear a shirt or shoes. I used to belong to a barefooters organization, and we got letters from all of the state health departments indicating that not wearing a shirt or shoes did not violate any health laws. I personally contacted the state health officer in Oregon, and he explained to me that there couldn't be any such health laws because it would prevent food from being served poolside. I live in downtown Indianapolis, and I walk everywhere in the downtown as well as on the IUPUI campus. When I am walking around shirt-free, most people either do not notice or they do not care. While I have received a few negative responses (much less than 1% of the people), these negative responses are far outweighed by the many positive responses I have received. I think that if enough men walked around top-free in the hot weather, that people would become desensitized to it. Perhaps people are already desensitized to it, as it is not uncommon to see men jogging top-free. In the Life Drawing Models group, I discussed a scholarly article about art students' reactions to nude models. The article found that almost half of the art students were uncomfortable the first time they saw a nude model in their class. Negative reactions to the nude models seemed very similar to negative reactions to nudity in general. However, most of the students who were uncomfortable the first time became comfortable with nude models later. In other words, the students became desensitized to the nudity and found ways to come to terms with it. In the final analysis, if something offends *most* people, it is probably not a good idea. But if something only offends a small minority of people (and it is within the law), I do not see any harm in doing it. If we want a society that is more accepting of nudity, we need to start somewhere.... | |
| DBO, I think your argument is very valid. But, of course, each of us should make our own choices. Maybe I'm off the subject a bit but, I 'm surprised by the number of nudists participating on this and other sites who display pictures showing them clothed, partially clothed, or showing far less than full nudity. I've posted my photo showing full frontal nudity, though I certainly don't think my body is anything to brag about. Just an observation, and each person should make their own choice about how they want to be viewed on-line and elsewhere. Jim | |
| I can easily understand some people being uneasy about posting nude pictures of themselves. If it could be guaranteed that no one except genuine nudists/naturists would view this site it would be different, but the curiosity seekers and the thrill seekers make it difficult for some people to do that. | |
| Bigbare, I understand what you're saying and almost conceded you were right about others seeing one fully naked, such, as say, one's boss, minister, friends, family member(s), etc. who had no idea until they saw the post while browsing nudist sites. But, then I realized if one posted a clear picture and identified themself, they'd be outed anyway. So, I guess the real answer would be for those who don't feel comfortable being viewed by non-nudists is not to post a picture at all. Again, personal choice comes into play here. And, everyone has the right to decide for themselves. I realized I didn't adress the point of curiosity seekers or thrill seekers at all. All I can say is, so what? If there are no graphic, pornographic displays where's the thrill in viewing nude bodies enjoying what they profess as a life choice. I guess some will be able to explain, if they choose, why they don't feel comfortable being openly viewed by non-nudists/naturists. If some viewers are looking for a thrill by viewing my photo they'll surely be sorely disappointed. As far as curiosity, they will see I don't have anything any other middle aged or, perhaps more appropriately, senior male has, except more abdominal girth than some. Otherwise, I am equipped the same, though on a smaller scale than many. Jim | |
| Your points are well taken, Lux, but I was thinking mainly of people like newbie ladies who may have been very reluctant to try nudism to begin with. Some may take years to develop a more relaxed attitude. | |
| Very good point Bigbare. I'd like to hear from the ladies' viewpoint. It sure seems they're the more reluctant group many times. Many of us, I think, still have the old textile tendencies which say we must hide our bodies from all except our mates, in most instances. Jim | |
| DBO I agree that pushing people too far is counter productive. We don't want to increase resistance. It is 84 outside so I walked the block to the market in my swim shorts and flip flops. This time I remembered to bring my reusable shopping bag. Hot outside but in the super market it was so nice and cool without a shirt. Not one look of disdain. Nobody stood back at the check out counter and no one gave anything but polite service. In fact I think most may have been thinking "why didn't I do that". I guess I will know when I see others do it. So far I've only seen me in minimal clothing. Now back home with the groceries and hardly a sweat. I believe unless it is acceptable to use the rights we already have, we can hardly expect to go further and have full nudity accepted in public. Encourage less before expecting none and use your right to be in public less clothed. |
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