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Absolute Naturists Uninvited Photography of Nudists
| What can we do, as nudists, to stop the taking of univited photos of us at resorts, beaches or other places we may enjoy being nude? As we all know, this continues to be a problem and many times these photos end up on the internet. It is not always just the hot babes either. It is our children, our mothers, our sisters who are just enjoying themselves naturally. I have even heard of men being photographed and their picture ending up on gay websites. Besides being an extreme invasion of our privacy, it can obviously cause endless harm to our personal lives. It is even a deterent to people who would like to try social nudity. Your thoughts, experiences or actions please. | |
| It would be a thought to turn the table, as it were, and take pictures of them being 'lurkers'. They are obviously not naturists, merely thrill seekers of some persuasion. There was an article in the AANR 'Bulletin' discussing this issue. | |
| Too many times I've been sitting on the beach and witnessed someone taking pictures of mostly the young females. In the past I looked around for a few seconds to see if ANYONE noticed and I see that some are watching this person do this and not reacting. I ALWAYS get up and go over to say something and I say something loudly! "Why are you taking pictures of people without their permission!?" I'm surprised at how many "nudists" don't want to get involved. I don't seek out physical confrontation but do not shy away from it. It just bothers me that guys will look the other way or watch what someone is doing instead of taking a stand for something that isn't right. I take our camera to the beach, clubs and resorts everytime I go. I want pictures of my wife, my wife and I and the grounds of the places we visit. We keep photo albums to share with our kids, our nudist friends and for ourselves. If I don't know you...I don't want you in my photo or photo album. I've always said..."it's not the camera's you see that should concern you...it's the ones you don't see that are taking those unwanted pictures." Verbally exposing voyeurs is the first step. You gotta be alert and scope out your surroundings frequently. It's a pain in the butt but it's necessary. Next, you have to open your mouths and alert those around you. Next...confront the voyeur and make him delete the photos. If he/she resists...call the cops. This has been done before, with me and a couple other guys detaining the perpetrator. Before the cops/rangers came...he deleting ALL pictures on his camera card. Some will argue the "public" beach theory. I counter with...If you, your wife, your girl friend, family, kids were on a textile beach and I walked by, sat behind you, stood over you and began taking pictures of all of you, with your suits on...how would you react? NOW...why is it any different at a nude beach? ;) | |
| Although my wife and I would like photos of ourselves at the beach or other such venue, we have left the camera in the car so that there wouldn't be a chnace of accidentally getting someone else in the background. One of my friends on Facebook, a pregnant woman, was part of the nude bikeride in her area. Some, I'll just say, interesting fellow took several pictures of her from various angles and posted them on a porn site. All without her permission. A co-worker, who knew she was/is a nudist saw the pics and told her. She very widely posted about the abuse of those pics and, I believe, the site did get shut down. It is NEVER a good thing to take pictures of someone NOT in your party. It is too bad that no-one else stood up with you about that, FireProf. John | |
| The simple answer is to not practice naturism in public places that allow cameras like a public nude beach or well publicized events that allow nudity such as Bay to Breakers or Naked Bike Ride. With the exception of that big stripper convention, I haven't seen any resorts or clubs that allow cameras, and in those private settings you should be vocal about anyone you see taking pictures without permission. You should stick to controlled environments such as resorts. I'm 100% for respecting everyone's personal space and their privacy and under no circumstances should anyone be taking anybody's picture without their permission. But when you are in public there is no such thing as privacy. That's why it's public. You have no expectation of privacy in public while people have the right to take pictures in public. That's why TMZ even exists. The first line of defense is common sense. If you don't feel comfortable with people taking your picture or doing something else, don't go there, if you're there don't stay there, and please don't expose your family to that because you have no idea of who is who. | |
| Photographing people is rude but... Legally, in a public place you have no expectation of privacy. Anyone can legally photography anyone or anything in public. Private beaches or resorts have rules about photography. What's wrong with being nude? Are you ashamed? There are already nude photos of me online. If some weirdo gets off on them... that's his/her problem. | |
| Well said Armadillo, there should be no expectation in public that your privacy exists or that photographing you is a violation of that privacy. 1pub·lic adj \ˈpə-blik\ Definition of PUBLIC 1 a : exposed to general view : open b : well-known, prominent c : perceptible, material 2 a : of, relating to, or affecting all the people or the whole area of a nation or state 3 a : of or relating to people in general : universal b : general, popular 4 : of or relating to business or community interests as opposed to private affairs : social 5 : devoted to the general or national welfare : humanitarian 6 a : accessible to or shared by all members of the community b : capitalized in shares that can be freely traded on the open market —often used with go 7: supported by public funds and private contributions rather than by income from commercials ! & 6 apply don't they? I don't see anything about right of privacy in public. | |
| While true you may not expect privacy in public there are still standards of acceptability in public situations, at least among textile;.e., you may not photograph young children without permission or take upshots beneath a female's skirt without permission, etc. Therefore, nudists should be afforded the same protections against pornographic uses of their images. Jim Livin' naked and free | |
| Jim the only legal restraint would be child pornography. The rest might be nice but there is no law assuring it. It is a personal concept of politeness. The only thing that can be enforced is laws. So don't hit someone for violating your personal sensibility because that breaks a law. As for upskirts the law differs by locality but has no meaning on a nude beach. If you demand the right to be nude in public you have to accept the exposure it gives you. There are laws regarding harassment but that does not include being nearby taking photos. | |
| Armadillo and barefreedom: This question is for you both. You're on a beach, in a park, at an amusement park, at the zoo, in the mall... with your family; wife, kids, gf, friends. I come up to your or...better yet, I sit across from you and start taking pictures of you, your wife, kids... What do you do? | |
| FireProf- We would smile, maybe even pose. There are photographers that specialize in just that kind of photography. Street photography and event photography. If I were nude I would not care either. I'm not ashamed of being nude or being seen by people. If they use them for profit, I would demand a cut of the money. Note that some zoos, parks, and events, on the back of their tickets, say that you waive rights to your image by entering. Then they have photographers working and use shots for promoting the place. | |
| I agree, I would smile and probably start taking photos of the photographer. I would be in public so I know it could happen whether nude or wearing a silly hat. I would be more worried about the silly hat photo getting around. But that is how it goes. Myself, I never take a photo of someone without asking (unless they are in the background or pass through). I agree with having courtesy but it isn't backed by law nor do I expect it from others. It is nice when someone follows similar rules of courtesy that I grew up with. Having been to other countries I know they are not all universal. Voyeur, harasser, or if you are a professional it is called paparazzi. Might not like it but it is part of being in public today. Perhaps it means you have arrived at celebrity status. | |
| I,for one, do not object to someone taking my picture openly. Whether I am nude, riding my motorcycle in a kilt, dressed as a pirate, it matters not. Like some above, when I SEE someone taking my picture, I smile and pose. I have even asked for copies of the pictures. Legitimate photographers have no objection to this. I do, however, object to the surreptitious photographer lurking for thrills. These are not fellow naturists collecting nakation pictures, and I dislike the idea that they are possibly profiting from otherwise innocent activities. No one but family/close friends should have nude pictures of children. I agree that if you are on a public beach/park you pretty much give up the expectation of privacy, ergo, smile and wave. | |
| Yes we post our own chosen pictures here on NCH, but it’s OUR choice and it’s not going to a porn site. Even if some people may use this site just to view nude people for there own pleasure, and to that, those people should nudity. As the saying goes “try it, you might like. Your right the photo’s taken by others is un-wanted and unwarranted, but as BareOnTheCape mentioned “common courtesy”, what has happened to that? | |
| Is there really a problem? The nudist lifestyle is about body acceptance and this partibular community is about increasing social acceptance of the nudist lifestyle. I propose that, so long as you aren't doing anything vulgar in the shots, and aren't concerned with family finding out you are a nudist; that you accept gawkers and photographers as a typical part of the lifestyle. After all, isn't it hypocritical of us to penalize them for photography in nudist situations when it's perfectly acceptable in the typical textile world? | |
| the days of the Brownie Box camera are long gone...smart phones that you can seem to be chatting on while taking pictures with ,telephoto lens that can reach out over hundreds of yards away...digital and nano cameras that you can barely see ... I have even seen remote control toy planes with cameras....OOOO not to mention GOOGLE...one of my neighbors sun bathes nude in her back yard all the time...she went to a sign store and had a placard made to lay on the ground next to her lounge chair... Hi There Google !!! is what it reads...if your nude outside or at a public venue..there is no privacy... | |
| I usually get permission from whatever resort we visit and and take pix of ourselves and local scenery. At one resort we used to be members of, I found some guerrilla style pix that were taken at the resort and posted on Adult web sites. I informed the owner about it giving the web address, copies of the pix, and name to locate the pix. However, I got the blame for posting those pix and I was never there on those days they were taken and I did not appreciate the owner calling, being drunk and verbally disrespectful in regards to the whole matter. However, if there is someone or something interesting I like, I always have a small talk with the person involved before asking permission to take any photos. NO permission, NO photos, MY regards and THANK YOU with MY RESPECT for your wishes. It works all the time. | |
| In a free society other people often have the right to do things you may find objectionable. Wouldn't it be nice if we nudists were allowed the freedom we'd like to be nude in public, but that is a topic for another discussion. Since I'm a guy with no concern about being photographed at nude venues I don't understand why this bothers so many others. Some people say they fear their images will appear on the Internet. So what? What difference would it make? If my nude photograph showed up on a billboard around the corner from my house it would have no impact on me, and of course few, if any, others would really care. Why are so many of us so sensitive about being seen or photographed while nude? I don't get it. | |
| Many of the arguments I've read are pretty politically correct (posting what you think most want to hear/read) and would be fine...if I believed they were true. I'd love to see this..."free society" attitude up close and personal with some of you that "say" you wouldn't have a problem with someone you don't know...coming up to you...ANYWHERE...and start snapping your picture or pictures of your loved ones...and...JUST SMILE OR POSE....LOL And those that are currently single; if you were to begin dating again, or married again and your spouse was willing to participate in nudism but...didn't like having her picture taken...you'd just tell her..."live with it, we're in a "free society" and they can take your naked picture if they want...and I won't say a thing about it!" LOL Some SOOOOO open about this topic yet...not a whole lot of info on their profiles... Seems a bit contradictive! :) SEE THAT???....that was the BS Flag being thrown! LOL ;) | |
| FP, If you dont like our free society, you are free to move to a less free one. Do that, rather than limit the freedom of others. SEE THAT???....that was the BS Flag being thrown back at you! ROTFLMNAO | |
| When or where did IT SAY...I don't like our "free society????" Another BS Flag thrown! :) Limit the freedom of others???? Come ON! Where does it say that YOUR freedoms are more important than MINE!? YOUR freedoms stop at the end of your personal space and the beginning of mine! "Free Society?" We don't live in a Free Society. YOU CAN'T Do whatever you want! You said it yourself...taking pictures of others is rude...so RUDE is okay just because it's legal? In a Free Society...there is no such thing as RUDE! ;) SEE THAT?....THAT was the Challenge Flag being thrown on you and be careful cuz you'll be penalized and lose... and GET a Time Out! Now I'm ROTFLMNAO !!!!! :D | |
| Perhaps someone who thinks this is a big problem can tell me how he or she is affected by being photographed, and cite some examples of whatever harm is done. I still don't get it. | |
| Perhaps...those that don't think it's a big problem should look at it from the other side...those with female significant others that DO NOT want their picture taken. I see you're so open that you've posted numerous pictures of yourself in the nude on here!! LOL | |
| How would you like to be at a nudist beach with your wife and daughter and sometime later find pictures of them on a porn site? There is a woman friend on mine on Facebook that participated in a nude bike ride and two days later found pictures of her on a porn site. She found them by searching for pics of the bike ride, The fellow that posted the pics had never even approached her to see if she objected, which she did. Think of it. You, your wife, and kids on a porn site. | |
| I'm trying to look at it from the other side. Tell me how you or your loved ones are harmed by being photographed. I didn't know that you wanted to see nude photos of me Fireprof. I've posted a couple which should be available after they're screened. I recently returned from an eight day nude raft trip down the Colorado River through Grand Canyon. I was a member of a group of 29. We all took nude pictures of each other and no one seemed to experience any harm at all. In fact many of the group provided their photos to me for inclusion in a DVD which I distributed to the group. It had been a little over three months since all those photos were taken and still not one report of anyone suffering any harm | |
| Let me give you a few of my thoughts: 1)I am at a clothing optional beach with my two grandchildren, they are enjoying running in and out of the water as little kids do and they are nude, a guy comes up and start taking pictures of them with a big close-up lens... is that ok because it is a "Free Society" and "Public Space"?; 2) Those of you who have no problem being photographed nude without your permission by strangers... One day you see your picture on the side of a bus in a major metropolitan area with the caption "He has AIDS but still enjoys the sunshine."... is that ok by you becaused it is a "Free Society" and your picture was taken in a "Public Space"?; I can keep givng more scenarios but let's be honest... it is Just Plain Wrong and a violation of a persons civil liberties to commit such an act. People who take these uninvited pictures are Pervs and Scum in my opinion. Also,if you really think you live in a "Free Society" you don't have a clue where you live or what living is all about. I have been the victim of having my picture stolen on the internet and used on porn sites and let me tell you, It Is NOT OK and It Is WRONG... obviously you have never had that happen to you. | |
| At the risk of sounding pedantic I will respond to your points SunBunny. "Let me give you a few of my thoughts: 1)I am at a clothing optional beach with my two grandchildren, they are enjoying running in and out of the water as little kids do and they are nude, a guy comes up and start taking pictures of them with a big close-up lens... is that ok because it is a "Free Society" and "Public Space"?;" First of all I want you to know that I don't approve of pervs, scum, or people being rude, but to a certain degree they have a right to be that way. Just as anyone is free to look at anything that is exposed to public view, they are free to photograph it. As revolting as it may seem to be it really is okay. "2) Those of you who have no problem being photographed nude without your permission by strangers... One day you see your picture on the side of a bus in a major metropolitan area with the caption "He has AIDS but still enjoys the sunshine."... is that ok by you becaused it is a "Free Society" and your picture was taken in a "Public Space"?;" What you suggest would never happen without a release signed by the individual in the picture. If it did happen to me I would become a very wealthy man as the result of a lawsuit, but other than that it wouldn't have a lasting impact on my life. "I can keep givng more scenarios but let's be honest... it is Just Plain Wrong and a violation of a persons civil liberties to commit such an act. People who take these uninvited pictures are Pervs and Scum in my opinion. Also,if you really think you live in a "Free Society" you don't have a clue where you live or what living is all about." It is not a violation of anyone's civil liberties to be photographed in public. I certainly wouldn't want to live in a society where it was. "I have been the victim of having my picture stolen on the internet and used on porn sites and let me tell you, It Is NOT OK and It Is WRONG... obviously you have never had that happen to you." Having your nude photo posted on the Internet without your permission I believe, is a violation of the law, but without getting into a discussion about porn sites let me make a couple of points. Anyone who discovered your pictures on a porn site would probably not be of very high moral character, and if you weren't shown engaged in some sexual activity there wouldn't be many who would be interested in looking at them. And I still don't believe it would have a significant impact on you. I believe there is a lot of hypocrisy among some nudists. If we expect others to believe that we are neither embarrassed about or ashamed of our lifestyle that means we need to start acting like it. We need to accept that there a lot of weird people in the world who like to take photographs of nude people. Please trust me, it really is painless. | |
| The world is a spectrum...There are those, Bill for example, who don't have any objection to being photographed nude. There are those who for whatever reason object to being photographed at all. I think a lot of, maybe most, nudists prefer to keep their nudist activities private and "compartmentalized" and not randomly published without their permission. Think for example of the clergy amongst us or the elementary teachers or the Rotarians or the politicians or other people whose reputation or other professional interests would be irreparably harmed by the publishing of a photo they didn't give their permission to. One of the basic tenets of nudism, at least at the club level, is anonymity. I think that needs to be protected. Then there's the prurient interest aspect. The world is infested by pedophiles and other skanks who get a charge out of viewing images of children or others in a sort of "peep show" mentality. Often these photos are traded worldwide and often for cash. What if a picture of your grandchild was taken and sold to these miscreants or worse, put up on a "meat market" with the directions to where this family and their children like to hang out. Imagine how that would effect us. "Child kidnapped while family cavorts at nudist beach." That might be an extreme example but in today's world entirely possible. So Bill, you might not care but lots of people do and it's an intensely private and personal decision and a decision that needs to be respected just like your decision to allow any and all to take your nude photo. Personally, if I caught anyone taking pictures of me or mine without permission there would be a seriously "dropped" camera. Bill, why don't you send us all a copy of that DVD you mentioned and THEN go tell all the people in it that you did. I want to hear the reaction. | |
| I still don't get it. How are all these people going to be harmed. Many of you seem to think there is a vast majority of the population that doesn't approve of our lifestyle. According to a 2006 Roper poll commissioned by the Nudist Education Foundation (results are here: http://naturisteducation.org/Projects/NEF-Roper_Poll_2006/nef-roper_poll_2006.html ) the vast majority of people believe there is nothing wrong with nude recreation. Come on you guys. Poke your nose out of the closet. The witch hunts are over. Instead of trying to hide what you are you should be recruiting your friends and neighbors and gaining more public acceptance of our lifestyle. | |
| it isn't the vast majority that anyone's concerned about. I have "recruited" people to the lifestyle. I don't hide my nudism. Most people I know are aware. That's a lot different than having my unauthorized photo published by someone I don't know. I should be the sole and final arbiter of whether my photo gets posted and where. | |
| Bill... YOU cannot really believe this: "First of all I want you to know that I don't approve of pervs, scum, or people being rude, but to a certain degree they have a right to be that way. Just as anyone is free to look at anything that is exposed to public view, they are free to photograph it. As revolting as it may seem to be it really is okay. I do not believe that you believe that..."it really is okay." Can you get your sites narrowed in on the subject at hand? You're all over the dang place and equating "uninvitied Photography of Nudists" with actual harm...as an assault! What harm can someone taking you picture without your permission???? Come on...you seem like an intellegent person. Is there harm in having your picture placed on a voyeur website? Is there harm in your nude picture being put on a porn site? Harm: the harm you are describing would come if those having their picture taken by a stranger punch him in the nose and shove his camera up where the sun don't shine! LOL | |
| As I said before, having your pictures posted on a website without your permission is against the law, but it still doesn't seem to cause much actual harm. Bill Clinton engaging in oral sex with an intern in the Whitehouse didn't seem to have much of an impact. | |
| Huh? | |
| Absolutely, people are free to be rude and obnoxious. It is part of the price we pay to live in this society. Sometimes I don't like it either. Yeah, it is okay. I also believe that people ought to be free to be nude when and where they wish. I believe that the owners of bars and restaurants should be free to decide whether or not smoking will be permitted on the premisis. I believe in a lot of personal freedoms which have been taken away from us. And more than anything I believe in personal responsibility. If you're afraid the some miscreant is going to ruin your life by taking a nude photo of you or your loved ones at a nude beach then you'd be a fool to go there. But I still maintain that there would likely be precious little harm done. | |
| @Fireprof I don't think anyone is saying that taking pictures without permission isn't wrong. This whole thing about some creeper coming up and taking a bunch of pictures out in the open is never going to happen. Especially in a private resort where cameras aren't allowed. In MY opinion it's kinda silly to hear the same people who share stories of how they wouldn't dare cover up for anyone, and who express a desire for a wider acceptance of nudity who also have a huge problem with some hypothetical person taking pictures when they themselves share their own personal nude pictures on the internet where everyone can see them. If you go out in public (not private clubs), clothed or undressed people are allowed to take pictures of you or whatever they want regardless if you like it or not. That's the point people are making. Nobody is saying that they should take pictures. If you are with a fragile, shy, soft spoken female who can't speak up for herself, DON'T TAKE HER OUT IN PUBLIC where people have access to take her picture. By all means if you're out and someone starts taking pictures of you, say something to them and let them know that it is unacceptable, but don't be the idiot who is putting their loved ones in a situation like that to begin with. I'm not going to take my 5 year old to a public nude beach where there's even a remote possibility of one creeper who might try to take her picture. That's just common sense to me. The whole "what if it was your wife, daughter, whoever" thing is just stupid to me because it's like going to the starbucks in bad neighborhood where there are muggings every night just because you want coffee, or using your laptop in the bathtub and getting mad if it gets wet. @nudecojohn Seriously? Is your friend really so naive to think that riding naked down the middle of a public street in a highly publicized event that nobody would take her picture? Seriously? Also @FireProf I can't speak for anyone else but nudism to me isn't about how many or how few naked pictures I have for everyone to see. I'm not hiding anything but I don't have anything to show either. @SunBunny What exactly are you doing when you see someone with pull out a huge camera walking towards your grandkids? If it were me, I would notice someone paying too much attention to my kids before any camera came out. But as I stated earlier, I know that there are shady people out there and I'm not going to put a child in that potential situation in the first place. There are closed circuit cameras everywhere, and pretty much all phones have cameras in them and there's absolutely nothing you can do to turn them off or make them go away. The ideas of going to the beach or any other public place with some expectation of privacy and the idea of someone with a huge DSLR camera walking up to you on the beach are so completely unrealistic. It's like "What if the government is retasking satellites to take pictures of you on the nude beach?" Theoretically possible, completely preventable, totally improbable. This conversation reminds me of talking to someone who had a pregnancy scare talk about how they don't like to use birth control. Here are a couple related videos. | |
| Gaijin...I think you totally missed the point of that example, But if it did happen I would not be so stupid as to just sit and say... well gee it is a free society, c'mon get real please. Bill, How would you know how a woman would be harmed or not... remember your a guy and you would smile and pose and hence ENCOURAGE that behavior. That doesn't do anybody any good and is very irresponsible and MOST Nudists I know would agree. Harm comes in many different forms, and I DO NOT HIDE so don't even go down that path. YES I WAS HARMED, don't even go down that path either and guess what, you can't sue anybody if they take it down, forget about any apology, but by then the damage is done and it is on a dozen other porn sites. Maybe you would like to be on a porn or gay website site... not sure, but good luck if you do. Special Note from SunBunny: I retract and apologize to BillBowser for applying what Armadillo said about posing for the cameras to him on this post. That comment should have been directed to Armadillo and is. | |
| SunBunny, I've asked several times for someone to explain how they were harmed by being photographed. All you've done is criticize me because I'm a guy who doesn't understand. Please explain it to me so I can understand. In your first post on the thread you say in part, "it can obviously cause endless harm to our personal lives." This certainly is not obvious to me. Please elaborate. | |
| Bill...What is your definition of harm? Here's Webster's definition: harm [hɑːm] n 1. physical or mental injury or damage 2. moral evil or wrongdoing vb (tr) to injure physically, morally, or mentally Is your definition different? Mental and emotional harm is certainly not the same as physical harm but it's harm nonetheless. Why are you being so obstinant about the idea that having your picture taken by a stranger and have it posted ANYWHERE...YOU don't want it posted...isn't harmful? Are you honestly that unwilling to see and understand that? :( | |
| My definition of harm is irrelevant. Those who say they are being harmed or that others are being harmed can use their own definition. My contention is that there is far less harm than some people believe. I'm asking you folks who disagree to tell me where I'm wrong. If this is such a big problem there should be lots of evidence to support that position. I don't think that's the case, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. Like I said, I don't get it. | |
| hmmmmm....we might be getting somewhere except... Your first typed: I'm trying to look at it from the other side. Tell me how you or your loved ones are harmed by being photographed. Then you typed: ... and still not one report of anyone suffering any harm Later you typed: My contention is that there is far less harm than some people believe. SO....is there harm or NOT??? And...your last quote: But I still maintain that there would likely be precious little harm done NOW you're speaking for everyone and know what and how much harm something like what we are discussing will harm someone? I'll tell you what I see.....I see someone that's be backed into a corner...has been proven wrong or...doesn't want to admit he was wrong and is going to continue on this rediculous path of "harm"/no harm/less harm...because you're unwilling to admit that what the vast majority is saying...is right! :) I've gone down this path with you before (over on NRO) and it's really fruitless to try and discuss an issue with someone that is unwilling to accept the fact that taking pictures of others, nude or not, without their permission is rude/wrong and shouldn't be done...regardless of the law! ;) | |
| Well, let's see, we have one person claiming some unspecified harm out of all the millions of nudists in this country, that doesn't seem like a major problem to me. | |
| That's more than a mouthful from what I just read. But, I'll stand behind and backup Fireprof & Sunbunny. Better re-read my previous post. | |
| [Bowser Quote; ]Well, let's see, we have one person claiming some unspecified harm out of all the millions of nudists in this country, that doesn't seem like a major problem to me. [End Quote] I think you need to go through this thread again. ONE person...I count 8 people on here that you can assume they are also of the feeling that having someone take your picture without your permission is not only rude and wrong...but "I" believe that their underlying intent is to state that it is also "harmful" or could be "harmful" to those having their uninvited picture taken. :) | |
| So try and change your local paparazzi laws. Whether or not we like/dislike people taking photos without permission in public, there is no law restricting it. If in a private venue a signed release is needed to be able to use someone's photo. Many not nice things are legal. We live under laws and what is nice or thought to be custom has little bearing on what can be done under legal protection. As for how I would feel, I make a decision to take part in activities knowing that it comes with negatives as well as positives. Some things you just put up with or decide on removing yourself from the situation. If you walk down the street and someone photographs an embarrassing situation and it goes viral on the internet, oh well, get over it and move on. Nudity has nothing to do with it, the laws are the same. | |
| There are some websites despite how you adjust your privacy settings are still acsessable such as Yahoo Groups,Flickr. The two Adult websites that need to be check for unknown/unauthorized posting of photos are "Watchersweb.com, and Voyeurweb.com". Privacy and respect goes a long way when it comes to taking photos. See my 9-2-11 posting. | |
| The bottom line is this is the internet and there is nothing really secure about it. | |
| "This whole thing about some creeper coming up and taking a bunch of pictures out in the open is never going to happen." Gaijin, it HAS happened. End of discussion. | |
| Although I suspect everyone has already lost interest in this discussion I will add a few comments. According to FireProf, 'I'll tell you what I see.....I see someone that's be backed into a corner...has been proven wrong or...doesn't want to admit he was wrong and is going to continue on this rediculous path of "harm"/no harm/less harm...because you're unwilling to admit that what the vast majority is saying...is right! :)" I assume that the vast majority he mentions refers to those who have responded to this topic. According to my count 17 people have taken part in this discussion. Five of them stated that they felt that being photographed while nude without permission was either harmful or a big problem. Five of them stated that it was either pretty harmless or not a big problem. The other seven didn't express an opinion on that particular aspect of the discussion. Not only is there no vast majority, their actually is no consensus. FireProf has a very unusual debating style. He offers no evidence or examples to support his position, he tosses around what he calls his B.S. flag, then he makes emotional appeals about something which is perfectly legal being wrong, and then he declares victory. In his mind it surely is wrong, and I'm not particularly fond of the idea either, but that is irrelevant. Let me spell out my position on this issue again. Photographing people in public places is not illegal, even if they happen to be nude. If you don't happen to like that fact then you should avoid public places. I contend that the harm caused by nudists being photographed without their permission is probably pretty insignificant. I say this because no one has described any harm that was caused to anyone. A couple of people claimed that their pictures were posted on the Internet on a porn site. I suspect that it was actually a voyeur website because I doubt that a porn site would accept photographs of dubious origin. But be that as it may, these people didn't actually specify what harm was done to them. For instance they didn't say they suffered migraine headaches, or they were thrown out of their church, or their bank foreclosed on their mortgage, or their employer fired them, or their children weren't allowed to visit their friends houses, or their goldfish died, or any such thing. All we are left to assume is that perhaps there was some mental anguish, and probably some anger. Of course both of these things can be harmful, but unless someone is continually harassing you this sort of mental anguish is self-inflicted. It is harmful to you only if you dwell on it as evidenced by the fact that whoever had the problem has gotten over it. As I said before, if you're not doing anything to be ashamed of or embarrassed about there is no reason to fear having your photograph taken and displayed even on the Internet. Those who have ignored my challenge to prove me wrong by presenting some examples of what they claim is a big problem are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. If you want to claim victory FireProf, have at it, but I'm still waiting for a little supporting evidence. Show me something that proves me wrong. | |
| Bill, that seems to sum things up. "Worry Often Gives A Small Thing A Big Shadow." Swedish Proverb | |
| Thank you Smokey for a very good sumation. I do keep some crime scene tape around just in case. This discussion has been a very good example of how I envisioned when I said honest and challenging discussions are welcomed. I honestly believe that if we can have spirited discussions like this, all walk away, wipe and off the blood, and have a gained persective or insight into a particular subject that allows us to grow in our thinking then we are all better for it. We should be open to that because it means we are open to change and not stuck in life. Really in the end, as I have surmized from ALL the discussions on Absolute, we all want the same things... to live and let live, to respect and be respected, to have happiness in our lives and finally, to be free to choose how we want to dress or not dress without any repercussions. Of all that, respect and happiness are always on my front burners. Thank you all for your willingness to speak your minds and put forth your beliefs. That is what freedom is about. Also thank all of you for continuing to make Absolute one of the most successful and active groups on NCH. Now lets all go find that bar Smokey is talking about and have a toast to our contined success and friendship. Cheers! | |
| A person can be harmed if their photo is used improperly such as a porn site. However there is no presumption of privacy when we go nude in public. Clubs usually have rules about photographs that does give us a presumption of privacy. As an artist, always looking for subjects, I carry 3X5 cards which has a models release on it stating photos will not be distributed without the permission of the subject. | |
| I do not photograph anyone without a signed models release. | |
| [SunBunny Quote...Now lets all go find that bar Smokey is talking about and have a toast to our contined success and friendship. Cheers! ...End Quote] I'll meet you there SB and Smokey but I'm still bringing my BS Flag...just in case! LMNAO!!!! ;) | |
| In a free society, sometimes people will do things we dont like. So far, no one has answered BillBowser challenge to describe what real harm they have suffered from having their photo on a voyeur site. Instead people make "what if" replys. As nudists, we should be sensitive to freedoms being curtailed by other people who dislike them. Freedom is not just about what we like, and screw everyone else. Freedom is for everyone, even if they irriate us. | |
| Wow...BillBowser is NOW the expert on "harm" even though he refused to give "his" definition of harm because...his definition was..."irrelevant!" So because his definition is irrelevant...than anyone else who can't show documents and medical bills to prove to BillBowser and Armadillo, for their personal "harm" for having their uninvited nude picture taken and placed on a voyeur/porn site, then...the "harm" doesn't exist! You have to have your ass kicked to have been harmed!!?? Makes sense.... LOL Free Society...come on man...ya know that's a crock! Free Society arguments can be blown outta the water with just one example; In a Free Society...ALL of us should be able to be naked wherever we want...but we can't! | |
| We can not be nude anywhere we want because some people think they are harmed by others nudity. Some people think they are harmed by photos. Both are wrong, and both have no evidence of harm. As for a definition of "harm", neither BillBowser nor myself are claiming harm. Logically, only those who are claiming harm can define what it is. Thus far they have been unable. I will say again- As nudists, we should be sensitive to freedoms being curtailed by other people who dislike them. Freedom is not just about what we like. Freedom is for everyone, even if they irriate us. | |
| We're getting off track here just a bit but to again answer your comment. Your Quotes... We can not be nude anywhere we want because some people think they are harmed by others nudity. Exactly! That's where you cannot say we live in a Free Society. We have rules, we have etiquette, we have common decency, we have respect for on another...we can't do whatever we want! Some people think they are harmed by photos. Both are wrong, and both have no evidence of harm. So...because YOU say they are wrong...they are wrong? What kinda Free Society is that? I can't be wrong unless you say I can be wrong? Again...What is harm to you? You and Bill fail to give us your definition or interpretation of harm! Is harm only physical in your eyes? Is abuse also causing harm? If someone takes your picture and puts your nude image on a questionable site and your employer finds out and fires you for company policy reasons...were you not harmed by that? I will say again- As nudists, we should be sensitive to freedoms being curtailed by other people who dislike them. Freedom is not just about what we like. Freedom is for everyone, even if they irriate us. I will say it again! Your "Freedoms," their "Freedoms"...stop at the end of your nose and the beginning of mine. You're speaking in generalities and this topic is pretty specific. If I take a picture of my wife or family on vacation, in a public place, and there are other people in the background and I put that picture on FaceBook...there's is no intent of harm to those people in the background. Some "harm" may come to a person in the background if they we suppose to be at work, called in sick and were seen at Disneyland in my picture. Reprimands, suspensions, being fired...that's still harm in my book! If I take a picture of a female/male/child on a nude beach and place it on a voyeur or porn site...it may not cause me harm but I'd like to know why you feel it wouldn't cause the female/male/child any harm. The male and female "could" possibly be affected by employers, friends, family...the community with negativity. The parents of the child could face problems with authorities, friends, family the community... How is that NOT harm? But we won't know exactly til you and Bill tell us what harm is! ;) | |
| Can someone please explain to me how someone else posting pictures of you on the internet is any more harmful than you posting pictures of yourself on the internet? (If you are a teacher and a student prints up your nude pictures from Nudist Clubhouse it will get you fired just as fast as the same picture on any porn website) Also Disneyland takes your picture on a rides like Splash Mountain and sells it to other people in the same car as you. Do they have the right to sell your picture? Also can everyone please stop using the term "free society" because you all are using it out of context. It has very little to do with taking pictures of naked people on a beach, and absolutely nothing to do with walking around naked at the mall or hanging out at starbucks. | |
| Can someone please explain to me how someone else posting pictures of you on the internet is any more harmful than you posting pictures of yourself on the internet? (If you are a teacher and a student prints up your nude pictures from Nudist Clubhouse it will get you fired just as fast as the same picture on any porn website) It's your choice... Also Disneyland takes your picture on a rides like Splash Mountain and sells it to other people in the same car as you. Do they have the right to sell your picture Come on man...a picture of clothed people on Splash Mountain...and your or your loved ones nude pictures on a porn site? Are you serious!? LOL NO worries folks...I'm getting off this merry go round! LOL ;) | |
| To quote the fp, you guys are off topic! I was at fantasy fest dressed in a loin cloth. A female started taking my picture. I pointed my camera at her and she said "you are taking pictures of me taking pictures of you?" I nodded yes, and she seemed pissed and walked away. How easy was that? no bs flags required :) | |
| FireProf, I'm being totally serious. You never really answered either question while trying to dismiss them as dumb questions. Your argument has been "what if it was your loved ones" and I am really just trying to understand the logic behind this. As Sunbunny stated in the original post "it can obviously cause endless harm to our personal lives", and I think that some of us are think that if you are an "absolute naturist who is already posting nude pictures of yourself on the internet, that statement sounds somewhat exaggerated and contradictory and we are (at least I am) trying to understand. If you are worried about people taking nude pictures of you or your family, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to take your family to a public nude beach. While it isn't your choice to have someone photograph you, it is your choice to remove your clothes in public, and it is your choice to visit that particular public nude beach. The cameraman isn't entirely to blame because they can't take pictures of you if you aren't nude in a public place. A lot of people seem to completely disregard that bit of common sense and personal responsibility. To me, it doesn't matter how pure and wholesome nudism is, I am not going to let my 6 year old daughter run around naked at a public park, and I'm not going to let her run around naked at a public beach simply because I don't like the idea of someone taking pictures of her and putting them on the internet for the world to see. That solves the problem about people taking naked pictures of her. (Answering the original question yet again) So lets get all of the "Gaijin You don't understand" or "You don't get the point" out of the way because apparently I don't which is why I'm asking. Again I ask you or anyone to help myself and others understand what exactly makes a nude photo of you on some random site harmful compared to the nude photos you post on nudist clubhouse? The same people going to those sites probably are on NCH as well looking at those same pictures. What makes it ok for shady people to look at nude photos you post yourself vs pictures that were taken somewhere else. Because regardless of who took the photo you don't choose how someone else views you. Many of the posts in Absolute Naturists talk about too many people wearing clothes at resorts, and people wanting everyone to be nude while keeping any dressed people out, and why do people find nudity offensive, why do people go out of their way not to offend people with their own nudity, and spreading and promoting positive naturism. If nudity is supposed to be no big deal, why is it that all of a sudden anyone with a camera is a potential photographic rapist? Nudity + Cameras = Nude pictures If you remove the nudity or the cameras, you don't get nude pictures. And since cameras are perfectly legal in America and you can't really get rid of them at a public beach, there is one other solution to prevent nude photography. (Notice I said Prevent and not take action after the fact) | |
| Let's See. I someone took photos of myself and family and posted them for "PROFIT", I believe I can sue as the photog did not have written consent ie. Model Release Form. Posted for free on other websites would be a different story. As for child porn that's a 2 way Catch-22 problem/situation for parents who take photos of their children and try to get the photos developed at Walmart, Target, K-mart, any photo processing outlet and get reported to the police, Child Protective Services, etc because there was a "NAKED CHILD" in the photos. This HAS happened and was reported in the Web and Press. Am I right?, or Wrong?. | |
| Wrong as to needing a release if the photo was taken from a public place. I say from because this includes a person on private property viewed from public property. We have two issues being discussed and they don't match. Apples and oranges, stop trying to mix them. Perhaps separate threads would be better. 1) legal issue of taking photos of nudes in public including consequences of retaliatory actions. (Objective) 2) Possible personal injury or emotional reaction to having photos taken while nude in public. (includes textile friend, relative, employer, etc. emotion driven reactions. (subjective) THe more objective one side gets the more subjective gets the other. We just aren't discussing the same thing. | |
| Gaijin, BIG DIFFERENCE between ME posting pictures of myself on sites like this and SOMEONE ELSE posting pictues of me on the WORLD WIDE INTERNET that I did not know they took or gave permission for them to take or post. Ther is NOTHING EXAGGERATED about that. I hope you are smart enough to realize that. Maybe not... This is not a topic to start a game of semantics, it is about a real problem and issue for the nudist community. One that comes up all the time in the Nudist world. What is so hard to get about that. Why do nudist clubs/reorts have policies about not taking photos with out permission or even taking pictures at all. If someone wants to go to a nudist beach and enjoy the sun and fresh air and let their kids play in the water without bathing suits, why should they be deprived of that and NOT do it because someone might take an UNIVITED and Non-Permitted picture of you, your family, your wife, or your kids. WHY? By your own actions, as you have stated, you are stopping your kids from doing that. Is that right? I guess you think it is and by that action you allow the problem to continue. Your choice, you can do whatever you want but don't try to speak for me or others who have experienced the issue. Just because I am a nudist and choose to practice my desire to live nude and be where it is appropriate does not make me a willing participant of uninvited picture taking. Geez, c'mon get real. That is the problem this topic was getting at. I do not intend to, or do I think anybody should need to get in a debate about your DEFINITIONS. This subject post is not about you or anybody else. Let's get back to discussions on the entire Topic of the post PLEASE. | |
| This past summer when I was at Cap D'Agde the beach was truely partroled very very heavily by the police looking for folks with cameras...the problem as I mentioned earlier in this thread is that cameras now come in all shapes and sizes...I talked to several of the policemen and women on the beach there and they agreed that there is just no way to completely stop pictures from being taken... there are people who are going to take pixs...some for personal use...some for putting up on the web..unless you personally have un limited amount of monies to litigate and a huge amount of time to troll the net to find pixs of you ...or your wife or girl friend and your kids there really is very little anyone can do.. | |
| This thread is full of people trying to have it both ways. You can either practice naturism in public view of cameras and risk having nude photos taken, or you can keep your clothes on in public and not have nude photos taken. You can either be ok with being nude in front of complete strangers, or you can worry about it but it's really hard to do both at the same time. You can't have your cake and eat it too. @Gordon, I'm not entirely following you. Are you asking if people get in trouble for having pictures of children? Of course they do. But it's 2011 so who uses film anymore? lol SunBunny, no disrespect, but I think you are the one who needs to "get real". You appear to be taking this as a personal attack on your values or whatever, but it's not. You keep confusing what I'm saying with what others are saying. First of all I specifically answered your original question multiple times in each post with something like "don't put yourself in that position", and "Stick to private resorts" if you are worried about cameras. This doesn't seem like an issue to the nudist community as much as it seems an issue to the exhibitionist/voyeur community. Photography at resorts is really a non-issue that's why I am specifically talking about the beach. EVERY nudist resort I have ever heard of (except the one that has the strippers) explicitly forbids cameras and photography so it's not really a problem at resorts. Usually if they even think that someone is up to something shady, that person will be removed immediately. You said "Just because I am a nudist and choose to practice my desire to live nudity where it is appropriate" which is exactly right. Notice that you said that you CHOOSE to practice your DESIRE and not your NECESSITY. Nobody is forcing you to be nude no matter how much you want to be or even if you feel you need to be nude and your own words negate your entire argument about someone invading your privacy. No one can invade your privacy if you are giving up your privacy all on your own. I don't claim to be speaking for you and I don't know where you got that from, however I am outright disagreeing with your flawed logic. You're saying that if someone takes your picture at a public beach that they are at fault. I am saying that if you desire to be nude in public and you chose to be nude in public where it is absolutely legal for people to take pictures of you then you share responsibility for any photos that are taken of you and obviously the same for any children under your care. I'm not defending the photographers, but the reality of the situation is that they have the right to take pictures of whatever they want in public regardless of if you are in the picture or if you are nude or not. You guys keep moving the goalpost, and accusing me of getting off topic when all of these variables that you guys keep tossing in like family, children, girlfriends, huge cameras, hidden cameras, websites or other places the pictures are uploaded to have nothing to do with the original question that SunBunny posted which asked what we can do to stop people from taking uninvited photos. FireProf yelling at someone who is taking pictures while admirable, isn't stopping anything if the person already took pictures. Emailing the website that you see your pictures on doesn't do anything to stop the person who already took pictures. Being a woman who is naked in public is probably going to do the exact opposite of stopping someone from taking pictures. Morality has nothing to do with legality in the real world, and legality has nothing to do with how the internet works. That's the simple point people some of us were trying to make. a photo is online, you can't take it back. Common sense is common sense, you either have it or you don't. Once a picture is on the net you can't take it off. If you post a picture on here, it is online and anyone can view it without your permission, and copy it without your permission and post it to other sites on the"WORLD WIDE INTERNET" without your permission and that's what you don't seem to understand or choose to ignore. So unless this mystery pervert photographer is posting pictures of you doing something inappropriate it isn't hurting you any more than you posting dozens of naked pictures of yourself. That whole "permission" in my opinion nonsense, because unless you lost your job over the photos, or you are getting harassing emails and phone calls, or your family disowns you, the only thing that a random nude photo that was posted without your permission is hurting is your pride. I would think that if one is truly an absolute naturist who is unashamed and will tell anyone who will listen, nobody is going to think that they are a porn star or anything other than who they are. If someone wants to go to the beach and enjoy the fresh air there is nothing wrong with that, but little kids don't care if they are wearing a swimsuit or not unless some adult tells them that they care because nudity to a child is completely different than nudity to an adult. You can go to any beach and see hundreds of kids playing for hours all wearing swimsuits, and as someone from Southern California I can honestly say that I have never seen a kid not have fun at the beach and they all wear swimsuits. You can pretend all you want to that it's depriving a child of this majestic experience by making them wear a swimsuit, but you also have to pretend that pedophiles don't go to the same beaches, and you have to pretend that nobody goes to nude beaches to see nude people, and that cameras aren't small enough to hide without being obvious, and that phones can't automatically upload pictures to the internet as they are taken. I'm not trying to speak for you, or define you or whatever else you just accused me of doing, but you guys are making these irrational arguments over something that is easily preventable if you choose to prevent it. It's kinda like watching someone slap themself in the face and then ask why their face hurts. I'm not trying to upset anyone but some are going to go out of their way to be pissed off and there nothing I can do about that. I'm finished with the novel. Short version: Getting naked in public isn't as much of an exercise in personal freedom as it is an exercise in common sense. Take that as you will | |
| Apologies to SB to getting off topic. I started the "definitions" discussion trying to get an answer to what someone thought "harm" meant. Back on topic: LOL I know you won't believe this but TexasnNewd and I agree on this. As he stated...cameras come in all shapes and sizes and it's difficult to see ALL of those that may be taking your picture without your permission. What becomes even more of a PITA...is that you find yourself unable to relax, completely, without the fear of your picture being taken. We go to the beach to relax but I have to be continually vigilant of our surroundings and those sitting next to us. About all you can really do is be aware of your surroundings and if you do catch someone taking your picture of some other unsuspecting visitor...make your displeasure known. Last comment; I'm going back to Moderating this topic! :) | |
| Being on camera is a fact of life these days. Just the two block trip from my office to the Walmart and back I counted over 200 security cameras. I'm sure I was in view of most, and I think that's me working naked in the yard on Google Earth. I've seen wrist watches with cameras and how web cams can be turned on by remote hackers. Just the way life is now. However, what I don't understand are the gawkers on the cliffs above nude beaches. One of them thought I was a gawker too as I walked long the path and he made a comment about the nude sun bathers down below. I asked him why he doesn't just go down to the beach and participate in nude sunbathing with everyone else. He just laughed. Some people are just voyeurs in every aspect of life I guess. As I think about it the same can be said about any type of sports on TV. Some people play and others just watch. |
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