Home
My Info
People
Mail
Search
Media
Events
ExtrasMy Groups 
Absolute Naturists Topless Equalty
| Do you think females should have the legal right to be topless(bare breasted)anywhere and anytime they choose(as males currently do)? What arguements (pro/con) could you provide for your view? I know I may be speaking to the choir but discussion is always good. Your thoughts please. | |
| Absolutely they should have that right..society twists itself into incredible pretzel knots to keep it from happening...ie..a woman walks out on the beach with a top on that barely covers anything at all and society has no problem..you open a magazine and what do you see...ad after ad for bras..and each and everyone is very visual..an actress appears on the Red Carpet that barely covers her breasts...women breast feed on trains , planes, restaurants..movie after movie have women in increasing less and less clothing especially in terms of the breasts... but OMG!!! she bares the entire breast in public and suddenly its pornographic...she goes from being a woman to being some sort of unimaginable female...but boy do they run to their computers and the porn sites...Americans have such a problem with nudity...thank goodness the rest of the world does not seem to have the problem any longer... | |
| Top freedom in NY has been around over 20 years to my knowledge there has been no problem. So what’s wrong with the rest of the country? Even before I went nude on a beach I couldn’t get it why a woman was considered inappropriate. If anything clothes draw more attention to a woman’s body than being nude. I wonder why woman haven’t rejected the idea of stuffing there breasts into bra’s. | |
| Women already have the right to be topless in public in parts of Canada and in New York and a few other U.S. states. However, women aren't excercising this right, so the overall liberation of women's topless rights may be hindered indefenetely. (resource: http://gotopless.org/topless-laws) | |
| Topless woman and I think if a place is not particularly appropriate sub-trend. As a man can not walk around topless anywhere after all fixed occasions in both men and women should have the right to bare upper body, but not without restrictions . | |
| I think Detach is on to something, but why are women reluctant. Maybe the body image issue has alot to do with that. Like if they aren't "perky" I don't want to expose them. Another thought is that the female breast is still viwed as erotic by many men, hence the staring or leering which is NOT a good feeling on the recieving end. Guys stare at my boobs all the time when I am dressed. I can only imagine that they would go ape shit if I took my top off, probably even want to take pictures. Maybe exposing them might eventually get us back to normal thinking on female breasts. | |
| I look at the man's role. If a woman is topless. Will cause a man's sexual desire after all characteristics of the female breast or part of, so overall I think the woman in terms of bare upper body should not be, unless the activities in the nude. but still can not remove the man's attention, after all, will attract a woman or a man's chest. | |
| alexx... So you think a nude woman would be less sexually stimulating then a bare breast? This my friend is exactly what I hope this group will help you overcome from your country's conservative teachings and sexual suppressions: social nudity is not open sexuality. I believe you ae on the right track so far. You are a courageous person and I appreciate all you have to say. Thanks for being part of our group and offering your honest viewpoints. It is good for all of us to read this. | |
| I personally think that women should have the same right as men to be top free. I think a few things would happen if laws were changed and women would adopt the practice in mass: First I think that there would be the shock from most men to have to stare. I think for the most part, this will quickly wear thin as the shock of seeing many different breast exposed becomes more common place. Though I'm too young to actually remember this, I'm interpreted through historical commentary that it was a real shock to see women at the beach with a 2 piece suit on. Now look at us now, a woman can walk around in other public places besides the beach or a pool with nothing more then a short pair of shorts and a bikini top and nobody says a word. Secondly, I think that it would become so much common place that most people won't pay any attention to the fact that women don't have tops on. People will still stare though. Not for the reason that women are topless, but because they are attractive and/or they have large breasts. This is no different then how they react now with fully clothed women. To summarize, if women were to be legally allowed to be topless in public, it would be shocking at first but would wear off fairly quickly IF women exercised the right to be topless. | |
| Isn't it interesting that men will pay to get into a strip club to watch a woman bare her breasts... then go home and diligently work on laws to restrain the very same woman from doing exactly the samething in public for free... | |
| There is no doubt that women should have the same rights as men. ALL the same rights. But...even some or most women will bock at the idea that "it's okay for a woman to go topless." As stated, there are already places where it is legal for women to go topless but police officers, the general public and even some politicians don't know the law and harrass women that have that legal right. Very few will stand up for their right and state the law and refuse to succumb to the harrassment. Others will cover...so they don't get into trouble or an arguement. Take into account the vast majority of men, in this country alone, that can't contain themselves at the sight of a bare breast! The maturity level of even the more chronologically mature men, when a woman's breasts are exposed, is amazing. I've told a few guys at the beach that if they wanted to look at boobs (didn't use that word) in that fashion...go to a strip club, pay the entrance fee...but "keep your eyes in their sockets and you tongue in your mouth!" on this beach! We've had a few of my daughter's friends here on many occasions. They are well aware of our lifestyle and often comment or apologize for invading our space and us having to wear clothes.LOL A couple of them have new babies and are breast feeding. Around me...they are quite natural and are comfortable breast feeding without cover. They even comment that I've probably seen 100's of bare breasts...I reply "thousands.. and they are pretty much the same!" To say I don't look at bare breasts is false. I do and I look at the woman's face and entire body. I look at guys bodies...WE ALL LOOK! But what is different for many of us...is we don't fall over ourselves at the sight of a nude body, or bare breasts. Until men grow up and get over the thought that breast are a sexual organ...we won't see many women taking full advantage of the legal right to be topless, just like men. It's like those that come to places like this just to get a glimpse of naked women...real naked women...not the ones they can see for free on the internet. They not only intimidate women, clothed,topless or nude, at various places but will keep women from ever taking full advantage, no matter what the legalities are. ;) | |
| Absolutely, as men have no body shame with being topless, so too should females have the same freedom and attitude. There is a caveat though with this premise. Generally speaking men view and react differently to what stimulus they see. All sorts of porn, hard and soft, drive that male propensity. I believe too that response is programed into the male DNA and has much to do with his ultimate desire to propagate. The evidence would seem to support this proposition. That being said, a woman who choosed to expose her breast to the general public makes herself vulnerable in a number of ways. Her own personal safety might come under attack let alone the verbal abuse and innuendo's she might experiance. Yes, she should have the right but with every right their comes a built in responsibility. An onus to be prudent and show wisdom as to with whom, where and under what circumstances they will express that personal body freedom(s). Do not expect that civil law will be there to protect you should things go wrong. The law will only allow you recompense for damages done to you. A nudist resort is still the best choice for safety, acceptance and freedom to expose all or any body parts. Jetman | |
| I think the more important question is: If topfreedom were legal, how many women would exercise their right to go topfree? While men have had topfreedom for many years, about the only time that men are consistently topfree is when they are wearing a bathing suit at the pool or the beach. Some men go topfree when running or working in the yard, too. However, I hardly ever see men walking around town topfree. So, I would not expect to see many women exercising their topfree rights beyond the pool or beach. I have not lived in any of the states where women have topfree rights, but I get the impression that very few women are exercising their topfree rights, which shows just how strong our cultural taboos are. I think it is more important to change attitudes than to change the laws. | |
| Isn't it More Important to have the legal and social ability and the CHOICE to go topfree for women.... What we choose to do or is up to the individual, like being nude. If it was legal, you could have the choice to be nude or not. Topfree may well be a step in that direction, at least here in the US. | |
| No one should fear arrest for any degree of nudity. Most laws refer to lewd behavior. Simply being nude is often not restricted. But how many are willing to push the limit of the law? Topless for men is allowed most places. But how many go out without putting on a shirt? I do this in summer and warm days in my neighborhood. I go shopping at the shopping center across the street or at the grocery store in shorts and sandals. I posted a thread on going the limit of the law and most comments were that it is offensive. Women have the right in a few states/cities to be topless in fast foods, parks, driving etc. However, topless women everywhere hurts the shock value, the titillation, if you will, of the female breasts. Women love costuming for effect, they are not into removing mystique. For that perhaps women in places where they don't have to face arrest could use bodypaint to create what they do with clothing. Let's use our rights. We can't go further until we get use to what we have. | |
| I absolutely agree women should be allowed to go topless, just as I agree we should all be able to go about in any level of nudity we prefer. As was stated, laws refer to lewdness not nudeness but most of us have been conditioned by societal mores to believe nudity = lewdness. I admit, due to my societal conditioning I do pay attention to women's breasts, like most males. However, I have found as I spend more time with nude women the sexuality equation becomes less and less. Women, unfortunately, have been led to believe the sight of bare breasts will turn men into raving sexual maniacs. Women should have the right to enhance their breasts if they wish, or to not enhance them as well. If opposed to the thought of cosmetic breast enhancement would one argue a breast cancer victim should not have reconstructive surgery if she wishes to replace what she has lost? If womem, en masse, would exercise their rights to go topless in public in time the shock factor and titillation would go away and the sight of women's bare breasts would no longer trigger hormone spikes, even among young virile boys and men. In more primitive societies, where minimal clothing or total nudity are the norm, the sight of bare breasts or naked bodies does not lead to sexual orgies and sex crimes, except amongst the sexually suppressed Westerners who stumble upon such sights. Jim Livin' naked and free | |
| Got to say, I have bigger boobs than the wife, and she has to "hide" her perky breast .. WTF?? but then again it's not how big or small or even how nice or saggy they are.. We should have the same rights.. !! | |
| WTF!! .... I like that, it's how I have always thought about this type of inequity. I kind of figured most of you would be supportive but have any of you strongly encouraged and supported the women in your lives to go topless, even around your own house or yard. Maybe it is this type of encouragement that would help them get over the body issues or years of negative teachings. | |
| I often hear the "men will act like neanderthals" argument given when this topic comes up, although outside of spring breakers, NASCAR races, and beach pervs, is this really the case? On the contrary, I see a LOT of venom coming from other women. Look what happens when there's some incident about a woman breastfeeding in public or something and there's an issue. "My kids/husband/boyfriend don't need to see that." "That's gross, she should put those away and breastfeed in the bathroom." And that's just when a woman is doing what her breasts are designed for: feeding her child. God help her if she takes her top off in the park...then she's accused of all kinds of things (at least here in the USA, the alleged home of the free). | |
| It's true...men, even some "nudist" men act like idiots and actually think that those they are gawking at are not catching on. I took my two daughter's and one of their friends to our nude beach. Waved at several of the regulars as we walked to our spot on the sand. Within minutes of the girls stripping off...we not only had a parade of guys walking by over and over again but stopped and wanted to "talk" about nothing. These are the same guys that would barely wave when my wife and I were there but now I've got 3 thirty somethings with me at the beach and they want to be our friend and set their towels up next to us....Thanks but, NO thanks! If these guys act like dorks...you can see why so many textile guys go ape over some topless girl/woman on the steet or at a public place. You can't tell me you haven't seen news reports of young women protesting something and doing so topless or in the nude and there are dozen of guys around...not listening to what they are protesting or have to say...but they ALL have their cell phones out taking pictures... Dorks...and Neanderthals! LOL | |
| Facinating that this is really only a problem here in the states ...its just NOT a big deal in Europe or in South America ... What I also find interesting about NCH is that it always...always ... the males fault ... never any other group ...just the men ... if we could just get the men out of nudism ..nudism in the States would be ever so much better... | |
| LOL... The idiots would be enough! I was waiting for you to chime in about the perceived male bashing going on here on NCH! LOL It is quite true...I've not been to Europe but have been to other places with European influence and advertising is different, topless beaches are the norm and women in many of these places are not shy about an exposed breast or nipple in everyday life. I guess we're not as open-minded here in the US as we'd like many to think we are! LOL :) | |
| Perhaps we enjoy the peep show so much that we adamantly defend against nudity. Like Peter Pan we don't want to grow up and openly admire the human form. Even here it becomes a choice of hiding the body and snickering, gawking at the draped image and trying to get a peek or being completely unaffected by the beauty of the human form because of the claim to be a social nudist. Why can't we all be adults about it, take public nudity in stride, and admit that there are those among us humans we find exciting, even arousing. | |
| Who benefits from telling woman they must cover up their breasts? Pornography (peek show mentality) Strip clubs (peek show mentality) I’m guilty of this one more out of curiosity I do admire their physical ability but that is as far as it goes. I still respect them. Above all the clothing industry that tells woman you need to dress according to the clothing we design. When clothing does much more to draw our attention to the female body. We as humans should be more open minded than all the other creatures on earth. If animals can do their daily tasks without concentration on the sexual part of life except when it’s there season to think about next generation. | |
| I ran across a poll about this in a New Jersey publication. I voted on it, YES of course, you may want to vote as well. Here is the website (it is ok, I checked it): http://www.nj.com/hudson/voices/index.ssf/2011/09/daily_poll_should_women_be_per.html | |
| Done! Pretty high vote count for top freedom. Maybe some day...soon... | |
| Too right the ladies should have the same clothing/non-clothing rights as men. The old saying, what's good for the goose is good for the gander applied in reverse, works. John | |
| Howdy FireProf...yeah my perception has always been hampered by the fact that I have to wear contacts and or glasses so enveritably it is skewed...I just for once..in one NCH thread would like to see someone other than men blamed for why American women seem to forsake nudism... And a huge thank you...thank you...thank you to barefreedom for your very astute comments...from my perspective??? right on the money... | |
| I too voted in the pole, 1 small step for woman 1 jiant step for man kind. Though the survey only asked for going topless on the beach. Hopefully 1 day woman will be able to go topless where any man can take his shirt off. I have heard some woman saqy guys who have man boobs should haqve to where a bra Yeaks. | |
| I totally agree that women SHOULD have the choice if they want to go topless!!! I did my part in the vote, Sure hope it helps, each voice counts!! | |
| Here in the midwest people have never even heard of the NY rights to go topless. Yes I agree women should have that right but doubt it would change much for decades. Would really need many women to express the right for attitudes to change. Maxx | |
| AZ, Soul searching and questioning our actions is always a good thing in my opinion. It means we are still thinking and alive. We all have biases, how and why we form them, who knows. When we do run up against on them, it seems like the perfect time to evaluate it and put it in it's proper place in our mindset. I do that all the time. I don't want to veer off the topic but maybe this could be an excellent topic for us nudists/naturist to consider. Thanks for your honest input. Anyone else????? | |
| I thought about this and not sure which way to vote..on one hand ..who cares?? Let the women go topless if they want. But then when I thought about it more...while at work keep in mind..there are times when it doesn't make sense to be topless..man or woman.. So I guess I'm saying wherever appropriate...be topless...man or woman! When needed wear something... Unsless you are like AZ)agoon and can be topless at work!!!! Lol | |
| To me it is easy, topless. There will be personal exceptions a lot depends on the weather both inside and outside. To be comfortable in the nude while sitting in an office requires a higher temp than is normally comfortable when active. Another is type of work, clothes provide protection against injury. From the POV of protection from weather and injury nude/topless should be perfectly OK. I wonder what that would be like? AZlagoon about the market. It's the food and association with care, prep and consumption. I wonder what a visit to Cap d'Adge would be like? | |
| Not sure about that Kilted... I was kind thinking about walking by the frozen food section and getting a bit of a nipply reaction, brrrrrrr. lol, thanks for the post Any other thoughts about this out there? | |
| SB...I have to agree with Kilted on that one. I've spoken to many nudists, even a few of our good friends and their perception is the same...covered when around food! (rolling my eyes) We've all eaten and prepared food for our group of naturist friends so many times...I can't remember...and it's always been prepared by someone that's naked. But something about sitting at the table and eating the food has some people freaked about the "cleanliness" of the bodies around the food. I'd have to say, in all honesty, that each time I've prepared food for our friends...either here at home or at a resort...I've taken a shower prior, wash my hands several times...before and during food prep and like all of us nudists...sit on a towel. If a portion of food falls off my fork and lands on my lap...I'm not afraid to pick it up and eat it! It's my body! It's NOT dirty!... But there is this perception of uncleanliness with naked bodies and food. Some might scratch, touch, rub against a portion of their body and touch the food... Some portions, yes, gross, but not ALL portions of the body are to be feared when around food. I guess...I trust most naturists to practice good hygiene...but I tend to be a trusting person! LOL ;) MY SINCERE APOLOGIES...for going off topic! Bare the Boobies whenever you can! They, too, need to breath fresh air...often! :) | |
| Why are we even discussing whether women should be permitted to go topfree? Women should realize that they don't need men telling them what they should be permitted to do. Women are our equals and should not let men tell them whether they can vote, can serve in the military, can be a firefighter, can be president, etc. If women feel that they deserve the right to go topfree, they should be telling us men that is what they are going to do. It's their decision. Stand up and take your equality. | |
| Jaybird, I would quote you in front of a judge but somehow I don't think it will work. Why are we talking about this... because women DO NOT have the legal right to be top free in public, thats why. I hear what you are saying, and I am more than supportive of the right, BUT we are not there and until we are we need to keep this type of inequality in the forefront of our thinking to overcome it. Men's voices are as good as womens voices. Tell me, when was the last time you got out publicly and protested this inequity? | |
| I definitely vote for the right for women to be top free. I believe we should all have the right to go totally nude in public but, as stated regarding women's right to go top free it is ILLEGAL in most areas. Nudists, in order to enjoy their freedom, must do so behind fences, closed doors, etc. Why? Why not turn the tables and require clothed people to hide from public view? I realize I can push this to the point of absurdity but nudists have given up their rights to the dictates of society, even when there is no law which actually prohibits us from going clothes-free. I have actually written to the Sheriff, District Attorney and Nevada Attorney General to ask for clarification on what is or is not allowed in terms of nudity in one's own yard or while operating a motor vehicle. I'm still waiting for a reply. Concerning the food/nudity issue, I agree with FireProf, as I often do on a number of issues. I think the major concern should be sanitation and food versus nudity and food. How is a naked body any different than an unwashed, clothed one? One final comment, wouldn't nudism in office buildings help contribute to environmental health (the planet's temperature) since temps could be raised for the comfort of the nude bodies working there? Just a thought. Jim Livin' naked and free | |
| FireProf you are right in saying that sanitation for food and nudity is a matter of perception. The most unsanitary part of your body is your hands. Also sneezing spreads air born bacteria and virus. Being clothed does nothing to protect your food in the market. A clothed person can get pesticide they were exposed to outside on your fruits just as easily as a nude person. A person's dog's E coli can be transferred by the hand that pet it.Dirt on a jacket or shirt is even more likely to get on food than from a bare chest or belly. People go to the market witth all kinds of filth on their hands. Being clothed or not doesn't change this. Unless the market issues lab coats, hairnets, and requires hand and foot wear sanitizing upon entering, like a meat processing plant, nothing is being done for clothed sanitation. It is perception and not reality. Let's get beyond misperception. | |
| I think it would be important to point this out: There is only one woman on this blog defending topless equality for women. I think that says it in a nutshell- Sure women should have the right to be topless, but only so many would be active and participate in such a liberation. Based on what I've seen (online and at the real protests), the group who protests and goes topless are small, followed by a group of women who seem to ridicule the topless women as they gawk. | |
| Rights are about legal allowances. They don't need to be used to be protected. It is about freedom and choice. As it has been pointed here by many members, most men do not use the right to go shirtless in their neighborhood especially in the grocery store. But that doesn't mean the right of choice should be restricted. Laws requiring clothing for anything but sanitation and physical protection are simply government regulation limiting freedom of choice. Freedoms need to be protected used or not. | |
| Detach, your right almost... only two women have responded to this topic. AZlagoon and me, geeez, c'mon ladies. Maybe this does speak to the apathy or just plain disinterest in the subject by women. Could this be a negatve body image type thing, like if they aren't perky I am keping them covered? Is it still to aligned with womens rights and burn the bra protests of the 60's? Did Victoria Secrets do a number on our thought proces? If men were to wear bikini tops over their man boobs would the women get angry and think they were making mock of them? This is all kinda crazy. What's the real deal here? I would really like to hear from a few more ladies on this subject. Guys can you please ask the women in your lives and let us know how they feel about this? This is interesting, Thanks. | |
| I have never seen any official polls that break it down by male vs. female, but I think that most men would be in favor of topfree equality for women (although maybe for the wrong reasons). On the other hand, I think that women are more likely to be opposed to topfree equality than men. In the article referred to by bjjb, where the journalist writes about her topfree experience in New York, it was a woman who complained about her topfreedom. So, why do women oppose topfree equality? Is it because of their cultural conditioning? | |
| I tried to touch on this earlier but I think my point got lost. :) I think a lot of women don't want to see topfree equality...think about it, in our twisted culture the nude (female especially) body has "commercial" value. At the crudest end of the scale, you have men paying to go to topless bars. More indirectly, a non-nudist woman can control how much exposure she gives in order to attract mates or signal availability...ultimately leading to some benefit (a mate, a good time, free drinks, not getting a speeding ticket :-) etc). So on one hand you have women who either consciously or simply through cultural indoctrination norms view control of breast exposure as some part of her personal value. When she sees other women who "give away" this value, hostility results. This hostility extends to even non-sexual exposure, such as breastfeeding in public or sunbathing. That's my theory anyway. :) | |
| Pretty sound theory...and probably quite true! ;) | |
| Yep, I sadly can't bicker with that theory either, they have bought me lots of drinks in the past. It is shallow, no doubt, but it was fun then. But this is what aligns sex with nudity. "Tittie Bars" are all about sexual stimulation. Some of the recent pics posted on NCH displaying young sexy and perky females are continously "Most Popular"... and my point was! Is there a wonder why some of us older and gravity challenged women would even consider placing a pic on here? Seems like our egos are our worst enemies. Can we ever get beyound that? That question applies to both men and women. PS - Applause for you women who are confident with your life and bodies and are not afraid to display your bodies with love and human grace at any age here on NCH. I am proud to be in your company. | |
Just remember: The quest for equality can backfire if lawmakers of the jurisdiction opt to require males to conform to the rules currently imposed upon females. The “few who wish to control the many” have taken the art of double-speak to a despicable level. The scales of justice can be levelled by either lifting one side up or pushing the other side down.
| |
| SunBunny, I know what you mean about the 'young perky women' dominating the popular photos list. I suppose that's too be expected...there's a certain segment of the membership that's here to see how many females they can put on their 'friends' list and collect photos, as if that means anything in real life. I'm happy that there are mature women (and men) such as yourself who are comfortable enough to appear here as well. I always imagine that the story of one's life is (partially) recorded on one's skin. The pretty young things may be easy on the eyes but they don't have much of a story to tell yet. ;) | |
| I believe the government has no business telling people how they should dress. There is no compelling state interest for regulating people's clothing. We need much more activism in support of our lifestyle and our personal freedom. | |
| SB, Yes young women make good eye candy for men as I am sure young men are good eye candy for women. On one of the other forums in a signature line "The speed of light is faster than the speed of sound which explains why some people seem so bright before they open their mouth." True story former Lady friend was be-moaning the shape of her body. She was remembering the way it use to be. Took her over to a full length mirror - nude of course. I stood behind her with my arms around her and I commented on the tummy - two children, the breasts they feed two children and I thought she looked pretty good, I told her so, we talked about a few other things. Later that day she mentioned she had never thought of herself the way I did and it made her day. Un-fortunately it did not last. So yes I would appreciate Ladies of all ages nude out in front of their homes, parks etc.... Eye candy is for looking, try talking to it.... =D~~ Kilted | |
Governmental regulations are not the front line. There needs to be a dramatic paradigm shift in the public’s perception of decency. In the early 1980s, Italy dropped their top restrictions for females. Some three decades later, ladies can — and do — go topfree but they are still a small minority amongst the women who opt to wear both halves of their bikini.
| |
| Well, I will never be described as Perky - but I would go topless Everywhere it was also appropriate for a man to be topless! There is a Topless March on Washington planned for next summer by the gotopless.org folks - I am hoping to be there! As for men's poor behavior over naked bosoms - I really think a lot of that would change if topless women were more common in our society! Most men are Not Pigs! | |
| Hi All! Absolutely we as nudists should support women in this issue! As I see it, this is just one more area where women have been routinely and unfairly discriminated against. Why should men be allowed to do something so natural and not women? Of course for bare breasts to be widely accepted I think many many people need to unlearn alot of deeply entrenched ideas about the female breast. First the a woman's breast is a nurturing organ not a sexual one. This is something that even women sometimes have a hard time coming to terms with. From the time women are born the education is that breasts are something seductive as well as something to nurse babies. If that were not true then why is some much money and advertising spent on bras, exposure of cleavage and so on? And so is it any wonder that many women would have issues with showing their breasts even if the laws in every state changed tomorrow and they were permitted to do so. Men...well their behavior speaks for itself...I think if it weren't for men alot of things wouldn't exist! Like corsets in the past and bras and thongs and so on. I see bras as todays corset and about as useful. Many women wear them because they think they need the support, they believe that they prevent sagging and stabilize their look so their breasts don't jiggle and move so much. Well bras don't really prevent sagging, if a woman in concerned about this they should know it has more to do with working the upper pectoral muscles. As for the jiggle well girls and boys thats just natural isn't it? And I have always thought watching a woman nurse is one of the most beautiful things there is. In short it is rethinking, reeducating and learning body acceptance for ourselves and others. As to the last part, I truly believe that the top free movement is the next part of true equality for women. Also I see the right to bare their breasts as a stepping stone for the naturist lifestyle. Perhaps if we as naturists would support the protests, the letter writing maybe even do some ourselves, and vote for this ammendment when it somes up...we could all see a day when public nudity as well as naked breasts in public as a non issue. | |
One aspect thus far not discussed offers its own conundrum. Of all the pros and cons revolving around top-free liberties, the arguments for cultural and societal norms, flat-chestedness versus man-boobs or the ponderances of self-esteem and body image — all focused on the privileges of one gender over the other — it seems to boil down to what one has “down there” determines what can be shown “up there.” Case in point: Chaz (née Chastity) Bono.
| |
| Here's one for you and one that may even stump the authorities... Say you are going in a male to female direction with gender reassignment. You visit the beach...take off your shirt and the cops come over and begin to hassle you... They say..."look lady...you need to put your shirt on or we'll give you a ticket." You tell them..."I'm not a lady...I'm a man (still) and can prove it" Do you still have to put your shirt back on? This is the issue so many women have with this double standard...I've seen men with larger breasts than many women and they can still go shirtless/topless...just doesn't make sense. | |
| FireProf I don't see the analogy. While I find small female breasts very esthetically pleasing I don't feel the same about male breasts either large or small. In this case I think it IS a matter of gender and quality not size. Equality is a matter of laws. Whether used or not laws should not discriminate by gender. Years ago this was a matter of court concern regarding male rape. All states had gender wording in their rape laws. courts reinterpreted and required rewriting because of cases lost because the victim was male. Courts have also ordered changes in laws establishing separate male/female restroom requirements. A person now can not face fines for using the wrong restroom if there was a line waiting for the other, it is out of service, or there is a difference in distance in most states. Virgina was the last state to remove the law prohibiting biracial married couples from sleeping in the same room. It gave equality to mixed marriages in comparison to same race marriages. The 1964 civil rights act removed many legalized methods of discrimination. Laws must change so inequality is not institutionalized and there is no legal enforcement that prohibits change and choice. If the law changes on women's breasts perhaps it will eventually change for nudity in general. | |
| No worries...you both missed the point...LOL Never mind! ;) | |
| Fireprof- I totally get your point....in fact that is an example that I use often when talking about the constitutionality of laws against bare breasts in public. I have a friend (from way back in High School) that is in the process of going from female to male. She (for ease of this post I am using the genitals to determine sex) is on hormones and totally looks like a guy. She binds her breasts so they don't give her away but will be having them surgically removed next summer. Even after surgery she would technically be breaking the law if she went topless in public. Although if she wears a males swimsuit she will never even be questioned about it. Simply put, the law is being applied based on a part of the body we don't even see. How screwed up is that. I can't find the link but I remember reading about a woman that took the top-free issue to the FL state supreme courts and lost because the court ruled that the FL state constitution's equality laws don't apply to women. How F'ed is that? | |
| I see at least one protester on Wall Street is using her top free freedom in New York although some of the images show the infamous black bar across her chest. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Day_8_Occupy_Wall_Street_September_24_2011_Shankbone_12.JPG | |
| The image I saw was correct with the sign "I didn't say look I said listen" | |
| I do get the point just don't think it is a good argument. Most laws regarding women's anatomical concealment does not actually require full coverage of the breast. It is limited to the nipple and areola. The rest of the breast is revealed without legal issue depending on the fashion and situation. Changing the law removes institutionalized discrimination. Women revealing their breasts is up to them. Since women use clothing to influence men (I know it is one reason, not the only reason)They will continue to hide and reveal for effect. But the law should not discriminate on this. | |
| I think I would have to agree Fire Prof, I did get your point but it is a point that falls on deaf ears for the most part. A woman's breasts are still sexualized by men and it carries into the laws which have for centuries has been determined by men. This is not man bashing, it is fact so don't get your panties in a bunch. There are men on this site that fantasize and sexualize a woman's breasts. Another fact is, if an individual feels the need to change their gender, they also must accept the role and laws that are applied to that gender. Sad, but still true... it is The Law! (This does bring up a another good question to post for nudists, thanks!) As far as a husbands breasts being larger than his wifes, well that is a classic case of where size does not matter when it comes to sexually based discrimination. Title VII aims to stop sex discrimanation in the workplace, but our daily living lives, where we spend the majority of our time, is still fair game for discrimination. This is plain stupid. It is an area that will continually be "gray" until we desexualize breasts everywhere and in every medium. Lawmakers and religious systems, that usually influence lawmakers, specifically need to quit this BS. | |
| Hi !!! SB uuuggghhhh...he's here.. In response to your comments on Title Vll...I have a good friend....most people in todays world have forgotton him..most youngesters have never even been taught about him...his name is Henry David Thoreau...he wrote a discourse called Civil Disobedience... in this discourse he wrote.. Laws have never made man a whit more just...this applies to Title7 as much as anyother law.. Looking back over the time this law has been in place stats show that it has only caused more separation between men and women in the work place..it has NOT brought them together... There will never be "equality" in the work place because we all make different choices...men stay in the work place longer than woemn do..women want to be close to the family while men tend to travel...men take on dangerous jobs ..women tend to opt for consistancy... Even in the same gender work force there is no equity SB..female prosecutors don't make the same as female defense attorneys...nurses don't make the same...surgical nurse make more than pediatric nurses or floor nurses... Discrimination will always be the case...my own twin girls have been discriminated against since birth...blonde hair..green eyes..tall..their moms european olive skin...high school was just short of hell...and most of it came from women...when it came time for college they were discriminated against because they were from middle class and white...criminey even in todays work place they are discriminated against because they have double masters and PhD's...one lands F16 on the tossing decks of the USS Ronald Regan in the middle of the night while its raining...the other creates RCD's that fly half way around the world to destroy things.. There is no "magic" place in the world where discrimination does not exist...you can not pass enough laws to create equality because equality can not exist... | |
| Well said TexasnNewd. True equality will never exist. Still, women should have the right to go topless without constant harassment. In an ideal world all (men and women) could walk about as they wish, clothed, partially or fully nude and not receive a second glance except in admiration. But, it will never happen. And, as you said elsewhere, men are wired differently - female breasts tend to be a turn-on for most men, including me. However, I have found in a nude social setting (yes, I've participated three times) I was able to act appropriately without becoming aroused or boorish. Jim Livin' naked and free | |
| Just a philosophical question. A friend of mine recently had a double mastectomy and although she had reconstructive surgery, she no longer has areolae or nipples. Does that mean she can go topfree? | |
| By what I have read staying within the absolute wording... yes. In actual practice, kinda doubt it. Now with that legal opinion and $16 you can buy a muffin at the a US Justice Dept conference. I hear they like muffin tops too. | |
| It isn't only women that don't use their right to be topless. Today I was 80 out and sunny. After spending most of the day nude in t5he apartment and on my balcony, except for an hour of jacuzzi and sunning (swimsuit required), I put on a pair of shorts and sandals to do my shopping at the plaza across the street. No one even appeared to notice. I think they just thought why didn't I do that. Not naked but as little as the law allows. | |
| Barefreedmon, you're right. We should all exercise our rights more to be nude or as close to nude as possible wherever we may go. Jim | |
At risk of being pedantic, we need to properly delineate for what we are vying. A RIGHT is something that is inherent to an individual: It is as much a part of a person as eye colour or intellect, something with which someone is born — indeed, endowed by our Creator. Since rights do not come from a government, a government cannot withdraw them; they can only protect or usurp them. Conversely, any activity that a government gives permission to do, or any generosity they deign to bestow, is a PRIVILEGE, to which it ultimately is revocable by that government. I define a RIGHT as something you can do without asking for permission. The opposite of a right, therefore, is something you cannot do without asking for permission. Any time you need permission to do something it is a PRIVILEGE. Black’s Law Dictionary defines this as, “… a particular and peculiar benefit or advantage enjoyed by a person, company or class, beyond the common advantages of other citizens. [sic] An exceptional or extraordinary power or exemption.” Rights and privileges are opposites. I have three corollaries to the definition of rights. They are: To illustrate, consider walking across your property or your neighbour’s yard; the former requires no permission, the latter most certainly does. Too many people have based their dreams on mistaking privileges for rights and need to consider the unforeseen consequences when envisioning their Nudist Utopia. We already have the privilege to be nude where it is private or appropriate — say, a secluded garden or a nudist club — but to invoke right status could result in undesirable situations like a naked pedophile, albeit sans prior conviction, rightfully loitering in a school zone. There are already jurisdictions where women are permitted to be top-free yet these provinces are far from being Areolæ Elysia.
| |
| As much as I don't like to think this, Ladies... I think the guys are right. The majority of women ARE NOT WILLING to go topless in public. In fact, women are becoming the greater non-supporters of the right to be top-free. I would really like to hear WHAT YOU WOMEN ARE THINKING about on this topic. This question is aimed at ALL women on NCH, not just in this group. This is a challenge. | |
| yeah I think wemon should have the same right to go without a top on. and aside from that young girls should have the same right as boys do to like playing outside or walking around the house and even at the public pool like how boys can take their shirt off to go swimming well girls should have the same right. and besides young girls don't have to worry about. their breast yet until they rech puberty. but even then they should still have that same right. to go topless and and for that matter even to go nude. | |
| In my opinion, SunBunny, I think, it's about "measuring up", just like some of the guys. If my penis is too small...I'll be laughed at, pointed at, made fun of with whispers. I think it's the same for women. My boobs aren't perky enough, large enough, I'm flat chested...one is bigger than the other, they aren't shaped perfectly like the girls in Victoria's Secret or any other magazine...etc. I don't think it's any different for women and breasts as it is for some men and their penis's. LOL ;) | |
| i have read some of the comments on this and i feel that its ok 4 a man 2 walk down the street topless and no comment would be passed .. but can u emagin what it would b like for a lady to walk down the same street topless ... yes you would hear alot of comments .. nasty things and good things ... yes i agree women should be able to do it .. but alot of women wont because of what would be said to them .. i for sertain wouldnt do it ... but in the right settings with other naturists yes ... i think alot of women would feel out of place and uncomfertouble and may b imbaressed .. but in the right situation ( camp / club ) they feel comfertouble and feel like they fit in .. | |
| Cyn, Thanks for your comment, you are a lovely and brave lady for taking a row with us scruffs. We need more input from the women in this group to truly get a balanced perspective. I appreciate all you have to say and thank you very much. Please continue. Am I right Guys?! SB | |
| Yes you are SB. Cyn, I look forward to reding more from you. SB's right, we do need to hear more from a woman's perspective. Jim | |
| Indeed you are, SunBunny! ;) | |
| I spent over three years on Crete, Greece. Every year, from about mid-May to mid-October, European tourists would visit the island and the vast majority would enjoy the beaches in the nude. They would all lay out, side by side, like cordwood, wearing nothing but a smile. Being in the military, it was comical to see 'new guys' going to the beach and tripping over their tongues looking at all the nudity. But this lasted for only about three or four visits. After the newness wore off, everyone just took it in stride and stopped gawking. The same situation is true in the U.S. Look at old 1920s photos of New York beaches. The women work elaborate covers that would probably prove impossible to swim in. If they showed anything (like their navel) the cops would swoop in and a scandal would ensue. Over time, suit got smaller and people stopped gawking. Now thongs and band-aid tops are very common on the beach without generating a second glance - yet a woman in bra and panties, covering up a lot more, is the stuff of some porn channels! I firmly believe that if people just universally dsrobed across the country for a month in the summer, it would stop being an issue at all. Sure, people would initially gawk, but that would soon wear off and it would become the norm. After all, we're all interested in seeing what's behind the curtain. Once the curtain is removed, the interest fades. | |
| I agree Hoya. But that is, I believe, the reason it doesn't happen. Between the fashion world and religion they need cover up to maintain their business. Body acceptance would effect the plastic surgery industry. Lots of money to be lost and fear of finding out nudity is not lewdity with no monetary gain in exchange. Hopefully someday they will realize it is they who put the lewd in nude and not nudists. | |
| I look at this on the flip side. Why wouldn't women be able to walk around top free? The only two answers I hear are that they would whip men into a sexual frenzy causing society to come to a halt, and it's a hygiene issue. Here is why these issues are not valid. Everything about women is sexually stimulating; hair, voice, smell, lips, eyes, even the word female gets reproductive gears moving. Thats the way the biological system is designed. Men have to put that aside everyday to function in society, and most do so very effectively. So, singling out specific parts of the nipple as the hot button where all control over primitive instinct is lost is ridiculous. They are a part like any other part. Hygiene? Really? I think this is a Pavlov's Dog issue. Some societies program a freak-out response around certain body parts. For example, you can go to a museum and there will be a painting of a nude female that everyone calls a beautiful masterpiece. However, if a woman stood next to that painting and took off her top with that same group of people they would be appalled and police would be called. The thing is, these people cannot tell you why they respond hypocritically that way and grasp for any improvised excuse they can as justification. It's an automatic conditioned reaction. Most naturists in general don't want to deal with this reaction and stay covered in non-nudist designated places. | |
| Hygiene is an issue where female breasts are concerned? How ludicrous. The reaction toward hairy chests and backs (on men) should really send those people into a total frenzy if female breasts (generally hair free or at most covered in very thin peach fuzz) are considered unclean. I do support the right of all to go nude among society if they wish - I certainly would like to do so. But, I don't since I'm sure it would be a cause of great concern and would lead to legal hassles I cannot afford, monetarily at a minimum. Jim | |
| Within a couple of weeks after New York State declared unconstitutional the laws forbidding women (but not men) to be top-free, the 800-member nudist social club I organized and led, The Skinnydippers, scheduled the first of our weekly Topfree-Equality Picnics in the public parks of New York City. On every weekend that was warm enough, dozens of our members would picnic in Central Park, Prospect Park and other popular picnic places. All the women as well as the men would be nude above the waist, enjoying our shared food and the sunny weather. Naturally curious passersby in the parks would come over to ask us what was going on. We'd explain that women were now legally permitted to be nude above the waist everywhere in New York State where men could be nude above the waist. We'd hand out our printed literature explaining the full details of the court's ruling, and many strollers would stop right there to read it all. Invariably, every weekend several new women would join our picnic, remove their tops, and expose their breasts to the warm sunshine for the first time in their lives. The look of freedom and empowerment on their faces was priceless. Later some of these non-nudists would join The Skinnydippers and participate in our other weekly clothing-optional and nude social events. I'm proud to have spread the word to so many people about women's right to be top-free. I encourage other active nudists to contact their local government representatives to declare unconstitutional the laws that clearly discriminate against women based solely on their gender. My wife Suzanne and I are retired now, and live both top-free and bottom-free 24/7/52 in our clothing-optional home and garden in warm and sunny Naples, Florida. We invite other friendly nudists to visit us to enjoy skinnydipping in our heated pool in comfortable 90-degree water, sunbathing nude in our half-acre garden amid the tropical flowers, and hanging out nude indoors and outdoors, to discuss women's top-free laws and other topics of interest to all enlightened nudists. We look forward to hearing from you soon. | |
| Peter, I appreciate your hard work to help women gain their rights to go top-free in New York State. I agree we all need to push our legislatures to grant women the same rights as men. Then, we should advocate for the right to go totally nude anywhere/anytime. After all, what is wrong with non-sexual nudity? Jim | |
| I have often thought the same thing. I have seen some men that have larger breasts than some women so what is the difference. Must be that many years of the propaganda campaign to make us be ashamed of our bodies and or correlate it to sex as in the movies. Don't get me wrong I like sex as much as the next person but have found in my short time in this lifestyle that you can separate them very easily. I feel they should be able to do that as that would make it easier for women to drive around nude if they wanted to because not to many people take a second look at a guy who is driving topless. Won't that be a great day? | |
| Women definitely SHOULD be allowed to go topless.....and bottomless too, as should we all. | |
| Of course women should be free to be topless everywhere. Sadly, it's a cultural issue for Americans more than a moral one. Too many only associate females breasts with sexuality. While they may be attractive for men to look at, men's chests are also attractive to many women, including my own sweet wife's. That doesn't make it dirty or immoral either way. Plus, from this male's perspective, if they wanted to cover up the most alluring part of a woman's body, they'd have to cover their faces because to me the face and smile are the most attractive features on a woman. | |
| August 26, 2012.... here is your chance to publicly support the equality cause in any way you can. | |
| Just found this topic. Should women be allowed to go topless in public? Yes. Would I do it? Probably not. Yes, I do go nude at my resort, but it's the norm there. *shrug* | |
| Strange as it may seem, Mr and I were talking about this and he asked how I would feel about being topless in the general public. As we discussed it, he said that even though we are nude a large portion of our lives, he still feels it is "proper" to wear a shirt if he goes out to work in the front yard! I didn't know that...go figger. Now, keep in mind that he's not the most conservative guy out there, so if he feels that way about being shirtless/topless in the general public...how must a woman feel about that? Even if it is legal! Just a thought. Enjoy the Sunshine! C-OHome | |
| I think you have to put "in public" in context. If the battle for topless equality was won tomorrow, I don't think you'd start seeing women at the grocery store shopping topfree. What I imagine would happen is probably closer to what I witnessed in France in the early eighties. Several factors actually brought on the "topfree explosion" of the early eighties; one being increasing german and danish beach tourism. And many of these tourists went topfree on French beaches. And so many French women started following suite. By the early eighties, it was no longer a "tourist thing"; a huge proportion of topfree women were French. Even my uber-prude Mom started going topfree at the beach; everyone else she knew did! Topfreedom then spread out of the beaches; into public pools, lakes and mountains. There was no generational gap either; many of my middle/high school classmates went topless at the pool during summer break (and even at the height of my hormones raging, it still became just normal). At the height of the "topfree explosion", I'd say that 60-70% of French women went topfree while on vacation. But that didn't mean women started walking down the street topless. It just meant that in recreational public areas, they could be topless just like men. Of course the question still stands: could that ever happen in the U.S in this day and age? I support the right to do so; but I'm also a realist, alas. | |
| I tend to think you would find as many men being shirtless as women in a grocery store which is probably very few if any... that's not the point. The point is that a woman would not be arrested for taking her top off wherever and whenever she want, just like men do. That is equality. There would be no need to make political and social statements about being topless, it just would be. | |
| A great point, SunBunny. The right to go topless anywhere/anytime is what equality really is about. Jim | |
| Where I live even men get funny looks if we are without a shirt. I was getting ready to mow the lawn the other day and needed fuel for the mower and had to go down the street to get it. I had my shorts and shoes on and no shirt. Some of the looks I got from people was amazing. Most were looks of what the h*** are you doing out without a shirt. Some of the areas of the country are lagging further behind than others. | |
| |
| cyn, SB, and ALL ladies; my take on Topless Freedom is that ANY woman; large, small, or any combination thereof should be able to walk topless down any street and not receive any of those comments either good or bad. If the lady receives comments, she should be able to have the commentor arrested for harassment. | |
| Arrest for a comment might be a bit drastic. However, they certainly sahould have the right to go topless, bottomless, or totally nude without derisive comments. Unfortunately, too many will assume if they're even partially nude they invite such comments on themselves. I wish for a world in which we all are free to go clothed or unclothed as we please witout anyone assuming it carries any particular connotations or invites unwanted comments/acxtions. Jim | |
| I feel women should have the equal right. Though the majority of STATES are top free, some cities in those states have passed (unconstitutional) ordinances that annul the state's top free statute. The following cities are officially topless "tested": Asheville, NC Austin, TX, Boulder, CO Columbus, OH Eugene, OR Honolulu, HI Keene, NH Key West, FL at Fantasy Fest Madison, WI, New Orleans, LA, at Mardi Gras New York City Portland, Or, Santa Fe, NM South Miami Beach, FL (on the beach) Washington, DC How can you find out if your city is topless? Simply google the city name and its municipal code and key in the word "nudity". Do the same for the county where the city is located to be sure. Consult with an attorney. Peace Love and Happiness | |
| Gender equality is a no brainer. Once again, our society has over sexualized our bodies for commercial purpose, therefore all view of sexual parts make people wild. I believe women and men should walk and live with the clothes they want or absence of clothes if they want to. Now,if law allows a man to go bare chest, it should give a women equal rights. | |
With the advent of modern medical techniques and the blurring of male/female tenets, conundrums such as this couple challenge society’s traditional values and force rethinking what many believe to be absolutes — this includes the nudist community, as demonstrated in this thread. All great civilizations in history have fallen once the moral fabric of their culture deteriorates; is this the case for to-day’s modern world or is this the future shock of progress? | |
| The basic premise of equal rights for men and women is almost beyound basic understanding and simplicity. YET the female breast remains outside of the equation and the laws, courts, and enforcement organization can't understand that. You can't fix stupid... but you can teach your children that breast are not sexual, maybe we can begin to fix the proliferation of stupid at that level. | |
If presentation of female breasts — vis-à-vis nipples — is the issue, what is this lady’s legal status? | |
| Stricker8, the short answer is NO. For if it were true there would be no need for this string. | |
| OK, so what about a "guy" that gets a boob job as part of a sex change.. Still has the kickstand but with boobs? can he mow his grass, ride a bike around topless? "He" may have bigger boobs than my wife.. But since "he" is still a male it would be Ok and could not get arrested.. Would be "fun" to see that in court ;) | |
| Wayne, there are several states (including Texas and New York) where it is legal for women to go topless anywhere it is legal for a man. However, even with those laws in place, public acceptance is not on line. There have been a LOT of women in NYC shedding their tops and bras this summer. There has even been a women's club formed there where the women go to parks or other public areas and sit around and read various books topless (some wear VERY small bottoms as well). | |
| I am aware of NY state but the question before my comment isn't it leagle for woman to be topless anywhere men are. That is what I was responding to. | |
| As the old saying goes "What is good for the goose is good for the gander" Is it not discrimination? | |
| The issue of topfreedom is another example of the reaction setting a rule for the practice, rather than the right way around. There are those few examples where a woman uses known social biases for the purposes of gain, power or intentional public disruption (not convinced accepting a drink is quite a dastardly behaviour, mind you). We know some use it as a political or protest tool, which I wonder does not only maintain nudity as a means of titillation, but adds a measure of aggression and abnormality in application. Neither will aid the acceptance of nudity as a social state of well-being. Saying a woman's body is irrefutably sexual is objectification, and is precisely the message we get from governments and, sadly, community members that support suppression. But in almost every case where nudity is considered offensive, it is the witness, the person feeling they are 'recipient', that generates the sense of offense. The issue, then, is one of personal accountability and honesty. If I have a reaction to a situation, I should be responsible for introspection to decide if my reaction is appropriate or fair, supported by evidence or even based in a logical framework. We, as a nude community, realize this accountability, and have decided being the witness of nudity has caused us no harm, does not inspire reactions of sexual objectification, driving our cars off the road or taking up arms against our leaders. Directly to the point at last; Yes and No. I do not believe women should JUST have the right to be topfree. I believe women should have every right a man enjoys, consciously or intrinsically, with no exception. I realize identifying topfreedom may be the demonstration of the 'baby-steps' needed for change, but being topfree is a small example of the denial of a much larger condition on which to focus. Any less should certainly be considered a violation of Human Rights, not just a woman's rights. |
Home | Contact | Support | About | AANR | My Profile | Search | Mail | Clubs | Links | Sponsors | Video
NudistClubhouse.com™ is Copyright © 2008 • Nudist Clubhouse, Inc.
NudistClubhouse.com™ is a trademark of Nudist Clubhouse, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
NudistClubhouse.com™ is a chartered club of the American Association for Nude Recreation, and their Western Region
Membership Transactions by GTBill •
Visit our Sponsors