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Absolute Naturists Adult Only Nude Resort Policies. Is there an issue?
| A well known nudist resort in CA is currently being challenge as dicriminating against families with children for having a "adult only" policy. What are your thoughts on this? (This adult only policy is not for the purpose of sexuality so please don't go down that road in your responses) | |
| I've met the owners, Elizabeth and John, on a nude cruise last year. They are a lovely couple and did a great job representing their resort. I think they are within their right to defend their resort as an adult santuary as many of us single adults are sick of dealing with the children that run around while the parents assume we are okay with it. and not have to worry about PDA's offending any parents or influencing younger individuals. It's nice to know there is a place where we don't have to deal with being splashed on, having little ones running around and the constant screaming, not to mention the toys left around/in the pool. As an adult sanctioned place, I think they are entitled to the same rules and regulations that are permitted to other forms of adult entertainment. Kids aren't allowed in adult novelty stores or strip clubs. So why aren't the lawyers attempting to sue these establishments to become more kid friendly? | |
| I can only say that when we travel to nudist or textile destinations, the first thing Mr looks for is if the resort has a "Kids Club". If they do, it's on to the next resort. We've had ours, dealt with them, don't want to deal with other peoples kids when we're on vacation. The last time we did, it was awful...so bad that we had prepaid for 3 days at a really nice resort and left after the first day to go someplace else. And this wasn't a chain hotel...it was an upscale resort! Since parents are no longer parenting, business have to make choices on their target market. Too bad for these owners that someone is challenging them...I wish them luck. | |
| I too think the resort owners should have a right to cater to those whom they choose. While I think it's important to cater to families so children may grow up guilt-free about nudity. But, it is important everyone's rights be respected. Jim | |
| If a business chooses to be adult only, that is within their right to do so. After all, a resort is a business and how they choose to conduct it is within their rights. If you have children and wish to visit a resort, you should visit one who offers that opportunity, not challenge someone to change their business operations. | |
| I'm ready to step in it! LOL I'll agree that resort owners have the right to have a "no children" policy. Our favorite resort is adults only and in the last 12 years of visiting there on a regular basis...I can tell you that those that broke the "no funny business" rule at the resort... the owners showed them the door...post haste! No children is okay but ... we should not exclude them completely. What we have currently is a misuse or overly used term..."resort." Many clubs are now calling themselves resorts and though they may technically be...it's not the same as what many naturist consider a "resort" they are speaking of. The three nudist resorts in Palm Springs really don't have any amenities for children. The largest one has the room but for as long as we've visited, we've not seen any "play" equipment for children. The other two are too small for kids with NO amenities at all. Kids would be bored to death. I wouldn't take our grandkids to either of these resorts even if they did allow children. For what they want and need...a club works much better. NOW...the problem I see with what is happening at the resort in question, that is now being sued...is the fact that their story is changing from website to website. I've bantered back and forth with the owners of DSR about some of this and was merely trying to get a truthful statement but I was unable to because they wouldn't answer a simple question. In the beginning...DSR stated that they were changing their policy regarding children because they had installed two fire rings and feared for the children's safety and to avoid any issues with injury lawsuits or insurance problems as a result in an injury, burn or otherwise because of these new fire ring areas. NOW, according to a newspaper article, the owners are stating that they are concerned for the children because of pedophiles and photographs taken of them while they are nude. Yet...they have a NO CAMERA policy and you'd hope they did some sort of screening of their perspective guests. Now I realize that you can't find out everything about everyone...but...if you had that concern...wouldn't you police the pool deck on a regular basis? Look out for any suspecious activity? Have some type of process to check people out? There was NO other reason for this "no children" policy than to bow to some that just wanted a getaway from kids...which was fine but the owners of DSR are now backpeddling instead of just sticking to their guns. They also thought it was so funny that another resort was being pressured to allow kids. They even went as far to post several comments about calling the other resort if you wanna take your kids but if you don't...come stay with us! ...now the flip flop's on the other feet...not so much fun now is it? I think it's sad that we have nudists pitted against each other. What was that thread on "who we should fear most?" Didn't I say..."us!" ;) | |
| Depends on how you look at the issue. On one hand parents need "their time" as much as kids need their own time, it is a way to relax from the everyday cycle that parents go through. Also some adults choose not to have children (whatever the reasons may be) or have had theirs and now that they have sent them off to their own lives and do not want to be bothered by children playing or making noise. Working for a hotel I have seen first hand over the last 13 years how children have gotten worse and parents seem to not know how to be a parent past the part of making a baby (my complete thoughts on that another time). On the other hand it is discrimination. Where does it end? 20-30 something married couples drinking too much and getting rowdy.... ban em. 60+ married couples just sit around all day in the pool chairs so I cannot sit...... ban em. Yes finally only 40-50 something married couples just like me, now everyone is happy. Oh wait that guy is fat, ban fat people too I don't like the look of them. (should be in blue font for being sarcastic) Where are all the nudists, Promoting the nudist life, Getting the youth involved, Nudist mantra "Acceptance" What are the issues with this policy.... well it kinda goes against what nudists are supposedly about. We accept you if you don't bring your kids and are here with your wife/husband. I have read the DSR website and already have gone couple only due to what "their clientele" wanted. Though they do allow singles supposedly for overnight only as long as it isn't too many, and they cannot go just for the day. Well we still need to increase the amount of nudist youth to keep the lifestyle going, as long as they are quiet and do not cause a commotion. Children have a tendency to rebel against their parents, so even if these parents live the life at home with their kids, but the kids don't see others like themselves then there is a good chance when given the opportunity to make their own choice it wont be to be like their parents. C-O "Since parents are no longer parenting, business have to make choices on their target market. Too bad for these owners that someone is challenging them..." good point, but how many posts appear on this forum about challenging society to change for acceptance? Detach "I think they are within their right to defend their resort as an adult santuary as many of us single" well as their site states "desert sun resort is now an adult only nudist resort. Day passes and memberships are now couples only" not sure how that helps singles? BJJB "If people don't like it then they don't have to go there." Yes I totally agree, but if it fails I hope people remember how easily they change their policies to a select few. FireProf " 2 fire rings....concerned for the children because of pedophiles and photographs taken of them while they are nude." Again goes back to parenting on fire safety, and how many of these parents go to free nude beaches? How often is a person seen snapping pictures there? And you are correct as to their no use of devises that take pictures rule. Lastly the pedophile reason, well to be honest "In the United States, about 50% of men arrested for pedophilia are married." (encyclopedia of mental disorders) so I guess it isn't safer to keep children away from single men then married men. The issue is not with this one resort, it is with the Policy as a whole. In this society of copycat if this resort generates a lot of revenue expect to see more resorts go this route, but hopefully not too far that recovering the damage done to discriminating or alienating families with children can not be undone. | |
| The issue is over a California law that prohibits discrimination including for age. It is the Unruh law. Exceptions have been permitted by the courts to exclude children in an atmosphere where quiet is enforced and children would be disruptive. This is the case at Two Bunch Palms Resort which is a textile resort a few miles away. They have other rules for enforcing a quiet atmosphere. It will be very interesting to see what defense is given. Insisting that children should not be allowed at a nudist resort simply because adults are nude would end nude activities for families in California and even endanger public nudity as limited as it is. The California law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unruh_Civil_Rights_Act | |
| I have been to nudist clubs/resorts where kids are welcome and present and I have been to places where there are not kids.... I will go for no kids, and by this I mean little ones usually under ten years of age. I think CO got it partly right when she said parents have stopped parenting but I think it is more of parents not respecting others. If YOUR child is annoying YOU, I bet dollars to donuts they are really annoying ME. The nonsense about kids being at nudist places helps them get a positive view of nudity is BS also. Most kids would be happy running around nude in their back yard playing with their dog. It is the parents attitude toward nudity that provides the positive view, not a nudist club/resort or me. The long and short of my comment, privately owned nudist clubs/resorts or whatever you want to call them should have the right to decide who is their target customer. Is there an issue with forcing a nudist business to accept children...YES! | |
| Yes Sunbunny, I couldn't have said it better myself. The parents bring their kids and let them run free as if the rest of the resort members are okay with playing the role of babysitter. I think I'm going to start going to this club that Elizabeth and John own more often, just to get away from the kids who can ruin a good time for us adults. | |
| A short comment about calling facilities resorts. Last year I saw where a facility started referring to itself as a retreat. Maybe other so called resorts should do likewise. Now, getting back on topic I have read many posts about attracting younger people. It seems to me having a restriction on children to come along discurrages the adults from coming. What are the parents suppose to do with the children so they can come. Parents do have the responsibility to monitor there children. I have also read that people at “resorts” look out for each other including the taking of pictures. What I think is going on is the dominate group of older people saying we don’t want the children around. So we have this generational devide. Do you really want to get younger people coming or are you pretending you do. I have found children of nudist tend to be the most polite children. Reach into your self and decide what the goal of naturalist retreates. | |
| Do clubs/resorts have a right to restrict who is allowed? Yes, they are a business and can do what they want. However, the point of nudism as it is practiced in most places is family centered, children and adults of all ages. In my long experience, children are well behaved at clubs and what you may consider annoying may simply be youthful exuberance. Children indeed will play nude any place. However, not every adult in the neighborhood or apartment complex may be comfortable with or agree with it. Law enforcement may be called in some places. A club or a nude beach then is the safest place for the family to be. I see separatism and a bit of snobbery here. I read all these messages about a lack of young people and young families. Yet many singles and childless people think children are a bother and seniors figure they 'did their time' and they don't want to deal with them any more. We are all in this together. Compartmentalizing people and groups serves no useful purpose in promoting nudism/naturism for all. | |
| calmnude, right on! :) | |
| This Senior did do my time with kids, I still enjoy kids, I enjoy my grandkids, I am glad some parents are instilling positive social nudity in their upbringing, I said kids playing in their back yard and not the neighborhood playground (please read what I said) and there are many clubs/resorts/whatever that welcome families with children and offer activities for the kids, BUT don't start mandating that all clubs/resort/whatever MUST accept families and their young children with legal mumbo jumbo. If parents go to these clubs/resorts/whatever and choose not to parent (watch over their childrens behavior or voice levels) it just is not acceptable or fair to anyone else even if the clubs/resort/whatever is "family friendly". These parents should be mature enough to understand the rules of simple respect to others. In many ways it is sad that we have to make "rules" like this but the qustion should be "Why". I think I and others have addressed that. Call me grumpy, but I don't enjoy hearing Marco...Polo all freakin' day at the pool. I don't think this has anything to do with "compartmentalizing", just respect which is what everything should be about. | |
| Hi, My name is Tom Mulhall. My wife and I own The Terra Cotta Inn, Palm Springs, CA. We also do not cater to kids. To me, the whole situation boils down to does the nudist industry as a whole insist that everyone try to be all things to all people? Or do we act like the mainstream travel industry and niche market. For instance I am a past President of the Palm Springs Chamber of Commerce. Palm Springs is not a child friendly down. It never has been and never will. It caters to golfers, tennis players, casino goers, night clubbers, nudists, etc. The mainstream travel industry has all sorts of resorts, different price ranges, amenities, etc. All over the US nudist clubs, campgrounds and resorts cater to families and kids. So why not have places like mine, Terra Cotta Inn catering to couples without kids when they want to vacation? According to the latest US census data only 33.6% of American households have kids under 18 living with them. Why should the other 66.4% of the American population have to put up with kids when they want to vacation at nudist resorts? One of the biggest reasons why my resort and the resorts in the Caribbean and Mexico are so popular is you can relax without kids. So I am happy to see most people back freedom of choice as far as nudism is concerned in America. Tom | |
| First, to address Mary Clare. Your particular resort deals with a specific demographic and age group. By catering to what they want, you make more money. I have no issue with that. Of the 66.4% that do not have children at home, I don't think all of them would prefer a vacation spot without children. But that is quibbling. Sun Bunny, back yard is back yard, not playground.I read what you said. I mean people can look outside their second story windows or over the fence and be offended. I find your comment insulting and patronizing. As far as the children are concerned, why punish the children when the parents are at fault. And why be churlish about the few who misbehave over the very many who do not? Club owners usually address the parents and I have seen some unable or unwilling to look after their children asked not to return, just as adults sans children who can't behave are. I do agree with you that "Respect", whether one is 5 or 85 is very important. Simply good manners. There are also clubs who schedule child free time in the pool for adults to be able to swim and relax in peace. I don't believe I mentioned anything about mandating. What I did say that some way should be found for a majority of clubs to be able to accommodate singles, couples with and without children and anyone else who wants to come and behave. I agree with S. Bunny that the key word here is "respect", by all parties involved. There are clubs that exist where this actually works. Couples only resorts are also needed to give people time to become reacquainted with each other and to enjoy each others company without distraction. It's a crazy stressful world out there. I think the frustration here is that there are not enough places with the sort of accommodations that Tom and Mary Clare offer at theirs. | |
| Singles restriction...... Kids restriction....... I vote out of shape people restriction next..... This is definitely headed down the "guilty before proven" road. Are all parents bad parents, no. Are all kids unruly and loud, no. I am seeing a trend here and maybe we should change nudism or social nudity to "childless couples nudity" because that seems the only group that is accepted by the masses. I find this ignorant and lazy, not everyone is the same but seems that some resort/retreat/campground whatever owners are too lazy to put in the time to give people the chance. Seems there are far more hangups in this lifestyle that people try to keep under the rug. | |
| CalmNude the Resort as you say is a business and as all businesses operates under laws. The days when a business owner could do what they want ended long ago. No amount of discussion based on emotion rather than law will make any difference as this case will be precedent setting for California. It may simply end with such facilities having the right to offer its guests a child free environment or it could end up prohibiting children from being at nude events. It will depend on the legal arguments of both sides and court decision. The rights of business owners are severely limited in regards to limiting customers and employees in many ways. Probably this started in 1900 with child labor laws and put government in the workplace big time with the 1964 Civil Rights Act of which the Unruh Act is an extension of in California state law. I often find it amusing how threads turn to the emotional discussion steering far from the practical. | |
| Speaking of discussions being emotional; Why is it that some have the all or nothing mentality? As for the challenge in court, be careful which apple cart you choose to overturn. It could come back to bite you, as barefreedom stated. The court could ban children from all nudist activity for their perverted idea of child protection. I still say, if you want to go to a child friendly resort/ranch/club, seek one out that currently has that option. | |
| The All or Nothing mentality does seem to pervade in many issues within the nudist community. As I recently scanned several issue of The Bulletin it appear that there are far more "Family Friendly" than "Adults/Couples Only" nudist establishments. So what is the problem. As I see it, law suits like this just open the doors in the court systems for "red herring" discussions like the suitability of children being at ANY nudist establishment. Once again, nudists seem to be a very gullible population in being suck into situatuons/discussions that can be used against them in for moving the wholesomeness of nudity for everyone, young and old, forward. This is a very good discussion, appreciate all the opinions. It is what makes the Absolute Naturist group the Best group on NC. SB | |
| I know I chat alot about Europe ...but.. in Europe especially in France....they actually have rules and THERE ARE places that children are NOT allowed...I know that comes as a shock to many many Americans who think children should be allowed to go with them anywhere they go but it is such a nice respite from here in the States... I agree with C-O ...had mine..raised them..and unlike todays parents I actually had rules they had to abide by and did not let them run rough shod over other people's space.. So the very infrequent times that I go to a resort I make sure that it is adult only... | |
| BJJB, I don't know how oters may respond but I think your message is right on point. The rules have changed so much since we were kids growing up (I'm now 62, soon to be 63). It was enough tough raising my own kids by the rules and values I tried to instill due to a lack of support among society in general. I guess it's just too easy for us who've raised our families to look at the apparent lack of discipline among children today and believe we did so much better. In reality, I think it's a generational thing with each successive generation longing for the "good ol' days" when kids were better behaved. I think adults should have the right to participate in adult only resorts but families certainly deserve placess where children may be children too, including the right to go nude while at play and beyond. Jim | |
| Sorry...off topic but this hits too close to home for me. BJJB..."broad brush?" Why is it ALWAYS the school's fault? Respect and rules start at home...NOT at school! ;) | |
| Parenting is not really the topic of this discussion and we need to quit being so sensitive. Emotions get in the way of logic. The common theme I am hearing is respect of others, respect of space and respect of business. In the case in point, it seems like there is an energy, be it either by nudist parents with children or a hungry attorney looking to make a name for themselves, to force a nudist club to accept whatever walks in the door. Is this right or is this wrong. That is the issue up for discussion. Let me reask the question, Does a nudist resort have the right to establish their own rules/policies of operation? | |
| Does a nudist resort have the right to establish their own rules/policies of operation? Not in violation of anti discrimination laws at federal, state, and local levels. This is going to court because of a specific California state law. The court decision may alter nude activity in California as well as exclusivity of events by adults. Obviously this is an attention getting attempt. Perhaps even someone trying to make social nudism more difficult to practice. The court room defense argument will certainly be interesting to read. | |
| Yes they do have the right, just as I have the right to regulate who gains admission to my house. Otherwise there would be 14 year old boys running in and out of strip joints. | |
| There is little relationship between a home and a business for profit. Even in the case of your home law creates limits (see what happens if you deny access to police with a warrant). Business is limited by law in how and who is refused service. Also in the pay for employes, break times, signage and so many things that were once a business owner's "right". | |
| I understand the police thing, but first they have to have suspicion. A for profit organization should have the right to moderate who gains access to their grounds and facilities. This is why there are rules in place anywhere a person goes. If they don't want children on the grounds, so be it. It should not be for the courts to decide. I think there is way too much government meddling in our lives as it is. | |
| I read the Unruh Law and it is a state expansion of the FHA rules, with which I am very familiar. I'll quote from the EEO Santa Barbara County web site: "Unruh .... makes exceptions for senior housing developments. Housing accommodations that meet certain requirements may legally discriminate against families with children." Question: If a property is owner occupied, does the exemption apply? In many states, it does. | |
| calmnude, taking that definition maybe the outcome would be if there are periment residents at the resort. One time I know NY state 4 or more units. However some states may any situation where there are 2 or more apartments or where the landlord is not a resident of that property. | |
| This is really a rough issue as I dont think there really is a "correct" answer. As someone who does not have kids it is nice to go to a place that I dont have to worry about getting irritated by someone not watching their kids or have to "watch" what I say (I know I will hear about that comment lol) but at the same time as many of our friend have children its nice that we have that option too. (Our home club is family friendly. I have even "adopted" a few of the kids lol) We all have to understand that although it is nice to have the places that are "adults" only we are also losing the chance to give our children a wonderful gift. The gift that we all share called nudism. Is it really fair that we dont allow kids when these kids are the future of our lifestyle? What are we really telling them that nudism is only for mommy and daddy? I dont think that will be sending a positive message on what nudism is to them or to the public. I mean lets tell the public we are worried about pediphiels and rapist at our clubs. Yeah that was a smart answer to make it look like there is nothing but pervs at these clubs so we dont want kids there! Really? Not the smartest answer. I mean do we not want to promote "family" nudism. That has been our biggest defense and now they are using it as why to not have kids at the club!!! I honestly think that we need BOTH places because as we have seen from this post many like both. I will continue to go to my family resort because that is where my family is, but I am also glad to have those few adult only resorts when I want just me and hubby time :) | |
| I think some of these "resorts" walk a fine line when it comes to the broad spectrum of the law. Not knowing the law...I think it's difficult for a "public" business...these resorts are "public" ... to try and dodge the law by their exclusivity toward people being nude...but if my wife and I came in off the street and wanted to tour ... I'm sure they'd allow us to. What "may" happen if this continues and these suits force these resort's hands ... is that some of these resorts will be forced to become "private" resorts with a "membership." That may turn perspective guests away but I know I'd join a few for a nominal annual fee. WE really need to be a bit more specific on the term ... "resort." Those in question and those that most of us are aquainted with in Palm Springs ie: Desert Sun Resort, Terra Cotta Inn, Living Waters Spa ... are "resorts" that are in question about their ability to entertain, have amenities and accomodate children. They can ALL accomodate children but there is absolutely NOTHING for those children to do but use the pool. TCI and LWS are both too small for kids to do anything. They can't run around, they can't play ball. DSR has room for them to roam but even there they can't run around. There is room for them to play ball but it's also adjacent to the "quiet pool!" Clubs (some call themselves resorts) have the most amenities for children and better suited for kids. I just think that some of these resorts are skirting the line of discrimination ... according to the broad spectrum of the law... but again, I don't know the law that well. :) | |
| FireProf, I hear you saying two things and I am not sure how you are applying then to the issue of forcing a private business (i.e. not accepting gov funding)to operate as if it was a publicly funded entity and therfore obligated by public law mandates. I do find error with other previous comments made in this regard. Let me take a stab at it from my viewpoint. The nameing convention is a red herring. It has no impact on anything other than marketing mumbo jumbo anymore. Also if a recreational entity does not have any kid play amenities to keep them entertained why would parents even think of taking their kids there, another red herring in the issue. The twisting of the "adults only" wording to align it adult business seems to be the problem. I still see the issue as a effort to derail the view of healthy social nudity as something perverted and not acceptable for children. It is a way to say or instill a thought that something go's on behind those walls that must be really bad if you do not want to let kids in. Who is behind it, I mean really, really, who? If there is a family with children who is hell bent on taking their kids to places with nothing for them to do, is there not something wrong with the parent's line of thought or parenting skills. Why on earth would a parent want to do that? Is that not "child abuse". I think most folks tend to get lost in the noise (red herrings) of an issue rather than heart of the issue and that is how we end up in court. | |
| I agree...say "adults only" and even "nudists" get their towel stuck up their butts and think something "naughty" is happening behind those gates and walls. That's a crock. Does it happen, I'm sure it does but many of these "adult only" nudist venues seem to go the extra mile to ensure that doesn't happen and that they are all about non sexual activity, as if there were kids present but ... without the kids! LOL ...but does a business have to receive gov't funding to be a public business? Do markets, drug stores, the shoe shop, McDonalds ... have to get gov't $$$ to be a public business? I'm not in business so...I don't know for sure. I think the issue is ... what you or I are referring to as a public business. Maybe I should have said ... "open to the public!?" My question was; if these businesses, nude resorts, follow many other laws, such as "no smoking" in eating establishments or in the bar, then how is it that they can skirt some of the other laws that regulate a business? Are they held by the same laws as the non nudist resort down the street? Let me be clear...my wife and I enjoy staying at the Terra Cotta Inn and have been for over 10 years. We are friends of the owners and are hardcore proponents of their resort and their business model. WE prefer going there for the reason that we don't have to deal with small children while relaxing. But ... are we (nudist resorts) skirting the law in regards to discrimination? I DON'T want TCI to change and allow children. We prefer not to visit our favorite place with kids running around. I hope this never happens to some of these places but ... what is the law pretaining to these businesses? I'm speaking in generalities and not specifics. I agree that there are far too many times when we as a society run to the lawyers and courts cuz we aren't getting our way. I don't agree with it and I don't do it but... in these cases, the lawyers and courts don't see it that way and they argue the law and not what we feel should happen or not happen. So...are our nude resorts public businesses or are they "private" businesses that do not have to follow all aspects of the law ... I'm asking a question cuz I don't know. ;) | |
| I realize that this is not the topic of this thread, but I'm kind of shocked at all the hostility towards nudists with kids. Mine are well behaved, but I get the feeling it wouldn't matter. :( | |
| It isn't ... and that is not the point of discussion. My grandkids are equally as well behaved ... the fact is, there is NOTHING for these kids to do when visiting the resorts in question. Why would parents take their kids someplace where there is NOTHING for them to do but sit in a hotel room and watch TV or play video games. They don't lay out in the sun and read, take naps in the sun, socialize with other older nudists ... it just doesn't make sense for children to be allowed at the resorts in question. That's all... :) | |
Gymnostim...here is my problem...I am NOT against children at all...however and this will certainly show my age I am sure...growing up there actually were places where children were NOT allowed...my parents actually went places without my sisters and myself...in todays world..both textiled and nudist ...children are everywhere...you can not get away from them... There is no reason what so ever that a nude resort can not offer their facilities to adults AND to children...but that DOES NOT mean that I have to attend that particular resort...and if the resort I DO go to decides to change their policy and allow children then I too can change my policy and go somewhere else...unlike soo many others in our society I DO NOT desire to change any business to conform to what I WANT... I will simply go some place else...that is my choice... I enjoy imported cigars...the bar I used to visit decided to ban smoking...I understood that very well...that was the owners decision...I simply went to another bar that allowed smoking...the owner of the bar that I left called me one day and wanted to know where I had been ( I had been a long time patron) .. I told him that he had made a decision...I made a decision simple as that.. I am NOT againt children some of my best friends have them...lol...but like C-O said..I have had mine...raised mine and now given the CHOICE I prefer to be around adults and not children.., No hostility involved at all | |
| Should nudist clubs/resorts be allowed to set their own policies? I would certainly hope so. It may be a resort for those of us that visit but for the owners, it’s a business. I would hope and expect the owners are making decisions based on what they feel is best for their business and not simply to discriminate against someone. I think the naming convention becomes an issue when a “resort” is marketed as a resort but operates as a private club. A private club can be selective on their membership while resort implies “open to the public”. As far as children at club/resorts go, I would hope there is never a day that children are not permitted anywhere but that there is always an option for those adults who prefer to socialize without them. The disturbing part of this topic for me is not whether children should be excluded but what happens when there becomes an issue. FireProf reminded us earlier in this thread of another topic discussed in this group. “Who should we fear most?” Well, let’s see…. A nudist becomes offended by a club policy, hires an attorney and takes it to court. Let’s let a Judge have a go at deciding our arguments within our lifestyle. Unfortunately this particular challenge references children, nudism and an adult only policy all in the same sentence. One can only imagine the field day an uninformed court could have with this. We could watch the lifestyle as we know it be diced and sliced and turned inside-out and then have to live with the outcome. Too many of these challenges can easily set back years of nudist progress when a court decides what they feel will be best for us. That’s my 2 cents worth anyway…. | |
| Should a business have the privilege of setting policies? Yes. The property owner opened the business to make money. As altruistic as some would like it to be, it was not for the promotion and development of a nurturing environment. Yes, some resorts/clubs are geared towards the Family setting. Some are not. Some will allow singles, some will not. I have been disappointed at not being permitted to visit a resort because of my single male status, but I did not seek legal action against the owner. I simply did not go there. I have been in nudist sanctuaries that have permanent residents that are families with children. The children were well behaved and respectful, and received the same from the adult residents and guests. I expected to see small people there. There are times, when traveling, that I wish to stay over without distractions. Visiting children are usually such a distraction. As others have pointed out, there is little or nothing to accommodate the youthful energy and exuberance generally found in bored children. Even 'well brought up' children in a must have a release. It does occur in the pool most of the time. That's life. My point is that: If you go to a Family oriented Club/Resort, expect noise, splashing and toys. If you go to an Adult oriented Club/Resort, expect noise and splashing. I'm certainly not quiet when playing water volleyball! The whole argument about encouraging youth to participate in nudism is BS. That can be accomplished at home or at a public beach/park that allows nudism. If a property owner makes money by keeping an adult only policy, he/she is doing what they set out to do: MAKE MONEY! Same thing if they have a couples only policy. It is their property, their business. I have a nudist friendly home. Most of my guests are adults. My daughter brings my grandson, and I choose to put up with the distractions he creates. If there are others there, they can choose to accept his presence, or not. So it should be for the Club/Resort owner. End point is this: If I want a strictly adult environment at a resort, I will go there. If I am willing to accept the distractions sometimes present when children are around, I will go there. After all, I am the PAYING Guest at the resort. When I register, I agree to accept the rules and environment of THAT establishment. | |
| PerfectTan, I think it was more like 10 cents worth... cheers, exactly what I see happening. Whenever we see an isssue like this happening and realizing the larger picture and it's implications on nudism as a whole, we should step up and support in favor of nudists... don't care if you have kids or not because it is really not about that. | |
| OK gonna throw another monkey wrench in the mix here. For those of you that are agreeing that resorts should be able to make it adults only....... if they can make it adults only that also gives them the right to limit or not let singles in. Same concept but different issue. If you are ok that the resorts can exclude kids cause it is a "business" then we would need to be ok with them on how they deal with singles. Just food for thought :) | |
| Putting things in the courts opens a large can of vipers. Our lifestyle is not mainstream and in the United States is really not understood by most people. We should be doing more to bring everyone together. Litigating when one does not get one's way may benefit the individual but harm the whole. Should AANR get involved? No. The organizational umbrella should include everyone who legitimately wishes to participate. As far as Milinda's statement is concerned, this is a valid point. How many groups of people do we exclude? Do we not risk splintering naturists/nudists instead of bringing everyone together? | |
| As far as MiLindas post, Different topic, different subject, different food, wrong wrench. Singles is not the subject that this topic is based on so lets keep on track. This topic is actually occuring at DSR. The single thing is not even though it may be interesting food for discusssion. MiLinda, maybe you should form your question into post and see whee it go's. I always encourage group members to do this. | |
| I agree, MiLinda, you do make a great point. I also this is NOT a matter to be litigated by the courts. I want to see nudism/naturism become more mainstream. Yes, I'm still really a newbie but I do enjoy the freedom nudism allows and just wish it were more widespread and accepted by society as a whole. Jim | |
| In re SunBunny's last comment. I respectfully disagree. Both are what could be considered protected classes under the Unruh Act, so they are connected. Milinda was simply trying to illustrate what kind of horror show could occur if people decided to litigate based on treatment based on marital status. I agree however, that further discussion would be better served in another thread. Also, for those who are not nudist insiders, DSR is Desert Sun Resort in Palm Springs, Ca. . | |
| I can see and understand all the points of view previously posted. One thing that we need to remember is the owner/operator of the resort, facility, club, whatever name you choose to call it has the right to ask parents to control their kids so alll can enjoy the resort etc. If a parent is ignoring the fact their child is being a pain to others then they can be asked to leave or fix the problem. I cannot stand a screaming obnoxious child as much as the next person and I have stepped in many a time and sent a kid packing to find his parents. I have 2 sons one 15 and the other 21. How do we deal with telling a 15 yo who is well beyong his years love living as a nidist that he cannot go because he is still coonsidered a child. So many in the nudist/ naturist community and complaining that there are not enough of the younger generations coming in and expanding the community. You cannot have it both ways and expect those that are younger to suddenly jump in when they are considered an adult when they have been shunned until then. Maybe as stated in an earlier post it is a good idea for owners to administer a kids club that keeps them under control and in an environment that is condusive to all. Excluding kids are dollars lost and detrimental to the life of the nudist/ naturist community. | |
| Whoever owns the resort has the right to make their own rules. The question is, can they be sued for discrimination. I do not know: I am not a lawyer. If you are a lawyer can you please comment on this issue? | |
| So out of curiosity, who is in support of them banning kids in favor of a quiet adult retreat and who is in favor of them opening their doors to families? I enjoy a family oriented resort, but I'm glad that there is one I can go to that keeps it an adult friendly environment. It's just nice to know that is available to me if I so choose. | |
| I am NOT in favor of banning children. I just think adults should have the choice to enjoy a relaxing atmosphere free of children if they wish. I, howeve, certainly encourage family resorts where children may enjoy just being childre, minus the trapments of clothing. Jim | |
| Kids are great. I visit three family friendly resorts and kids have always been well behaved and respectful. In my experience nudist kids are better behaved than textile kids. If kids were causing problems its the parents and CLUBS fault if they allow it to continue. Also, Id rather deal with rowdy kids than drunk obnoxious adults any day. | |
| Armadillo - Completely agree with you. I just got back from a day at Glen Eden in So Cal. There were 6 kids ranging in age from about 5 to 10. Wonderfully behaved, had a ball playing and swimming in the pool. They played well with each other amidst 80 adults in the pool. As you said parent teaching kids properly makes for great situations. | |
| As I have been reading the post here it seems the discussions have gotten focused on opinions of kids being at nudist resorts. But I think the question is more about what is or should be considered discrimination and should this (and other) business be forced to cater to everyone. Just looking at the post here should be evidence that some of us would prefer going where kids are allowed and some would prefer going where there are no kids. Isn’t the truth simply that we have the choice of where we go? Now if all resorts have to allow kids then wouldn’t that be discriminating against every one that prefers to have places to go where there are no kids? | |
| Not sure what resorts you all have been to but the few here in Florida I have visited I have seen VERY FEW kids to begin with. If somebody chooses to make there resort adults only then so be it....But I think that usually means there are SEXUAL things going on at that resort and that is NOT what being a nudist is about. | |
| The problem with exclusion policies is in where you draw the line between what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. Excluding children from nudist venues might well be acceptable to more than enough clientele to support the business in question, but suppose a different resort chooses to exclude another group, say seniors over 65 years of age? Or fat people? Or gays or lesbians? I would like to think if I choose to start a business that I could run that business as I see fit, but I also have to accept the fact that there are some areas of my business that will be governed by laws that I may not personally agree with. The issue I have with excluding children is that by doing so, we are severely limiting the growth of nude recreation. If we don't teach our children our nudist philosophy until they are adults, long after their attitude towards social nudity has been shaped by societal anti-nudity pressure, we will have a much tougher time getting them interested in trying it or even being tolerant of those who wish to practice it. I realize that there are currently other places to go for families with children, but I think that if we don't collectively frown upon excluding children from nudist venues we may well be contributing to the demise of nudism in the United States. | |
| This discussion seems remarkably similar to a debate I got into several months ago regarding the models Club Orient was seeking for their printed promotional material. Some folks took great offense to the notion that the business owners were seeking a very particular kinds of models (i.e. youthful and "in shape"). Those folks chose to see it as exclusionary. The simple fact is that those kinds of folks are everywhere. If a particular group is not catered to, then someone somewhere is gonna get their nose out of joint. It's exclusionary! It misrepresents the intent of the movement! Ho hum. I work in the film business, and I require the services of assistants. The ones I hire are typically experienced. Why? Because I've grown tired of training folks. Yet there was a time I needed the same training that I'm (by some interpretations) denying. Some might call that exclusionary. I'm denying a part of the workfoce potential employment. But I don't care. And the reason I don't care is because, at the end of the day, I provide a service to my clients. And I hold myself to particularly high standards. So I require a support team that is bound to those high standards all the time. And that's how I've managed to sustain a career (a business) for 20 years. That being said, a business owner (in my opinion) has every right to set the rules (within the bounds of the law) for that business. If they wish not to cater to children, or even if they do, so be it. If you, as a potential patron, disagree with the business' policy toward or against anything, then you have the right to take your business elsewhere. And on the subject of children...anyone remember the monthly Naturally California nude swims in Escondido?? They were a blast! All ages welcome. Kids...adults...whatever. Every time I went, I couldn't help but notice that a grand time was had by all. Then one day, a guy called James Hartline (who described himself as a "formerly gay born-again christian) got offended at the notion of kids mingling nude with adults. He raised a big stink about it...and ultimately, to keep the peace, the swims were shut down. And this was ostensibly BECAUSE kids were included. Article here - http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/archive/index.php/t-63620.html. Each side of the issue has its pros and cons. In my opinion, it's the amenities and policies set forth by whomever is in charge of the particular business, and ultimately, how the consumer responds to those amenities and policies, that will determine the success or failure of that business. Cheers all! :) | |
| CA law was briefly touched upon. A private membership resort, can indeed put whatever rules they wish in place. A clothing optional, commercial resort that caters to the general public, can seriously run afoul of the discrimination laws, even the fair housing act. Imagine if Motel 6 or Holiday Inn began to ban kids or anyone else. They'd lose the lawsuits. | |
| He is a reprint of an article regarding the resort in question A naked grab for money? COLUMN ONE By Ashley Powers, Los Angeles Times 6:51 p.m. EST, May 30, 2012 PALM SPRINGS — For Elizabeth Young, Desert Shadows was a place where she could shed her blouse, pantyhose, sensible heels — and everything else — and dive into a game of water volleyball. She and her husband, John, drove from Orange County to the nudist getaway a few times a year to escape their 9-to-5 lives. After its owner filed for bankruptcy in 2007, the Youngs feared someone would raze the hotel, or force guests to wear pants. So they bought the place and renamed it Desert Sun. At first, nudist groups embraced the couple as a welcome addition to their oft-misunderstood industry. Elizabeth has the blond sunniness of a televangelist's wife, and John the bravado of a salesman closing a deal. They spent millions sprucing up the place, but the goodwill they generated soon evaporated, and they were pilloried on nudist websites as traitors. Their sin? The Youngs announced what they considered a business decision but what others viewed as an attack on core nudist principles: No more children at Desert Sun. For the most part, "naturists" — the industry's preferred term — don't view bare-naked hiking or volleyball as sexual. That's why children are typically encouraged to participate. "Kids are natural nudists, number one," said Nicky Hoffman, publisher of the Naturist Society magazine, Nude & Natural. She criticized society for teaching "kids to be ashamed of their bodies." Introducing children to nudism is also viewed as a way to ensure the community's survival. Some naturists fret that their ranks — which the American Assn. for Nude Recreation says fuel a $440-million industry — could dwindle as onetime flower children die off. "We need to make sure there's another generation that knows we're here," said Gary Mussell of the Southern California Naturist Assn. There's no precise count of American nudists, but Naturist Society membership has dipped from an apex of 37,000 in the early 1990s to about 20,000 today. The number of resorts and clubs has held steady at about 250 nationwide. So many of them allow children that the Southern California Naturist Assn., for one, has a section on its website addressing questions about families who disrobe together: We Have Two Kids, a Boy and a Girl. How Do I Make Our Children Comfortable with Nudity? What Do I Do When My Nudist 'Tween' Starts to Become a 'Young Lady'? In recent years, however, a major threat has emerged to nudism's child-friendly traditions: technology. The ubiquity of camera phones has prompted some nudists to take extra precautions, lest photos of their children's bare bottoms end up online. Many resorts restrict where guests can use cellphones and cameras. Nudists also police each other, particularly on public beaches. "If they see someone taking photographs, that camera might end up in the water," Hoffman said. Even at Naturist Society gatherings, the only person allowed to take pictures of nude yoga and nude pudding tosses — and nude anything else — is a photographer whom Hoffman has vetted. "We're more careful than everyone else," she said, a common refrain in the nudist community. For years, the Youngs didn't think much about the issue. Then they became resort owners. The Desert Sun's previous owners welcomed children, and the Youngs initially did too. Very few came. The resort, a warren of shimmering pools and bougainvillea that lures about 10,000 visitors a year, wasn't exactly a haven for kids. It has 91 hotel rooms and condos, and boasts a tennis court and an elevated walkway, well-known to nudists, nicknamed the Bridge of Thighs. Rooms are priced for upscale romantic getaways — up to $450 a night on weekends — not family vacations. Couples mostly laze on pool floats or trade stories around fire pits. There's a spa, and a room christened the "Bare Buns Night Club," whose signature cocktail is the Naked Smurf. Even cheeky signs — such as "Abandon Clothes All Ye Who Enter Here" — hang at the eye level of someone fully grown. Whenever guest Craig Presley spotted children, he cringed. "This is an adult activity," he said one afternoon at the resort's Oasis Café. His wife, Juanita, joined him in a floppy black sun hat and red heels; he wore even less. The couple, who work in real estate, drive to their condo here several times a month and revel in the sense of abandon. But when children are around, that feeling vanishes. "What if there's a kid running around naked and I look his way? Is that OK?" Craig asked. The Youngs had heard similar grumblings for years. Finally, they decided limiting guests to adults might actually help business. When other nude hotels made the switch, it was primarily to lure swingers. But the Youngs said they could offer something different: a naked — but non-titillating — spa experience. "We're not a swingers place, we're not a sex place. We're a place to relax," said John, face glistening in 102-degree heat because he was fully dressed for this interview. "We tell our guests, 'Don't do anything at the pool you wouldn't do at the Marriott.'" They've ousted people for disobeying. The Youngs said they had another reason for wanting to rid the grounds of kids. They feared they couldn't properly shield them from some creep with a cellphone. They worried about the potential legal liability — and the guilt they would feel — if unseemly pictures ended up online. Or worse. "I'm not saying pedophiles are running around nudist resorts, but what if one did?" Elizabeth said. "If something like that happened here, I'd shut the whole place down." So in April 2011, the Desert Sun banned children. Business, the Youngs said, soared. The Youngs had no intention of stoking a public fight over nudism's future, let alone one refereed by someone clad in robes. But in February, a Palm Springs attorney named Dave Baron sent the couple a letter, which said his unnamed clients viewed the no-kids rule as a violation of California anti-discrimination law. They wanted the Youngs to welcome them again. Or else. Baron said his clients had recently made similar requests of half a dozen other area resorts, including a gays-only hotel. "I have clients who are civil rights people from way back, and they abhor discrimination on any level," he said. At least one is a nudist who'd previously visited Desert Sun. The Youngs viewed the missive as a threat and wanted a judge to weigh in. When they filed a lawsuit in March, some of their once-private concerns became public. Their most damning accusation: that it had been "common practice among pedophiles in recent years to attend 'family nudism' resorts," something the industry vehemently denies. "There is of course no way for Plaintiff to know whether any particular individual harbors — or worse, will act on — some improper or wrongful desire toward children," the Youngs' complaint said. Fellow naturists felt tarred. On the nudist website Nothing to Dread, writers bemoaned that the Youngs had gone "nuclear" and mocked the couple's reasoning as "greed thinly disguised as concern for children." Offline, some nudists discussed trying to intervene in the legal face-off. "We feel a really large knife in our backs at the moment," said Allen Baylis, an attorney who runs an Orange County group called Naturists in the OC. In recent days, the Youngs decided to drop their lawsuit and find another way to make their case. But they refuse to allow children back into Desert Sun — ever. There's no need to introduce youngsters to nudism, they said. You can have a fully clothed childhood and still join the naturist community as an adult. The Youngs offered their own story as proof. About 2004, they were running an insurance brokerage and raising two sons in Coto de Caza, the Orange County enclave made famous by the "Real Housewives" TV show. John heard about the then-Desert Shadows resort through one of his clients, an official representing a bank. He was intrigued and asked Elizabeth to go with him. Her response: "I can't do that!" Months passed, and Elizabeth did some research on nudist resorts. She warmed to the idea. One weekend, the couple zipped over to Palm Springs, checked into the resort, hurried to their room and took off all their clothes. They stared at each other for some time, working up the nerve. Then they strode into the sun. ashley.powers@latimes.com Copyright © 2012, Los Angeles Times | |
| I think it's going to come down to this: If it is a commercial, for profit business that is not going to claim "Adults Only" status (and be lumped in with bars and adult book shops) then a valid case of discrimination can be made. | |
| They've already added ... $10 "memberships" to get around that. As I stated before; IMO... the owners have the right to do what they want but the problem I had ... their story (reason) for going Adults Only changed three times. Newly installed fire rings were cause for concern and insurance reasons ... then ... "We polled" our residents and guests and that's what "they" wanted and we delivered... then ... We don't want pedophiles taking pics of them ... I really feel that comment will come back to haunt and hurt them. Too bad, nice place. They should have stuck with the second reason and left well enough alone. Which reason was it ... really!? | |
| Well lets see they lived in Coto De caza... the only reason I see is $$$$$$$$. The trend I am seeing is when people have kids they want them involved once they get older they dont want to deal with kids at all. But in a group like nudists/naturists they want the community to flourish and grow with young people, thus needing kids to grow up comfortable with nudity. Soooo maybe its time the stodgy people that dont want kids around to go...In the long run the children will offer more profit because they have alonger life span from this point on. | |
| sunnyLA, What a bunch of CRAP! Obviously you have not much of a clue on how much money it takes to own and run a place like that. So what as to where they lived and if they were wealthy or not, they were offering a nice nudist venue for nudists to enjoy. Stogey Grumps have nothing to do with it either. You will find those everywhere ...especially in the RV type places. For the most part older nudists like kids and have grandkids of their own. There are three issues that made this thing into such a mess in my opinion. One, a money grubbing loser attorney. Two, the waffling of answers given by the owners. That is a mistake in any business. Three, the stupidity of in fighting by nudist or naturists on the issue rather than standing behind the larger need for quality nude venues who subscribe to postive nudism. The bottom line... Conquer and Divide... does that ring any bells people. Many of you have fallen into that trap sorry to say. Who wins, certainly not nudists. You don't need a nudist venue in Palm Springs to teach your children that social nudity is natural and good. They learn that at home from your example. Be a good example and enjoy life. | |
| If you're lodging that ... "some of you fell into that trap" comment on me ... you're very mistaken. I could give a damn how they run their business ... it's their business. Naturist infighting ... those two wrote a large portion of that book! In an attempt to further their business ... they trash talked another prominent Adult Couples only resort in PS, on a couple of websites. NOW ... that's a load of crap! Most of their posts were lies, innuendo, misinterpretation, inflammatory and ... when a few of their stanch supporters stated truthful statements that contradicted what these owners said ... they told them not to ever come back to DS! And ... this is different than those that are supposedly falling into the trap of Conquer and Divide? These owners did just that with other resorts to try and boost their own selfishness...they were Dividing to Conquer! The only issue I have with a business is to be honest. For a nudist resort and it's owners to throw that last reason out there for everyone to read and enforce their already skewed vision of nudism, is a travesty. The reason I won't go back ... they treated a very good friend of mine, a constant supporter of these owners and the resort an always positive trip report writer for this resort ... like crap, on a couple message boards. I don't care for the place as much as she does and they treated me better! LOL I don't have any use for these people. ;) |
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